Yeah, we can see everybody. Hi, good evening everybody. And welcome to the first Art Hangs with MoMa learning my name is Stephanie Pau, and I'm associate educator in interpretation and research here at MoMa. Joining me today are my colleagues Lisa Mazzola who is the assistant director of school and teacher programs, and Jessica Baldenhofer, associate educator of school visits. Last, but not least,. East, along the bottom there. We have an invited an enthusiastic group of art lovers whom we'll be introducing in just a few moments. And actually everybody could I ask you to just mute yourself for just. A second. because I can hear a little bit of echo. Okay. Thanks guys. So this is our first hangout on Airevent, and we are so thrilled that so many of you can tune in tonight. One of the reasons why we are so excited to experiment with hangouts is that this format seems like really. A natural way to bring our on-site practices to a global audience. As educators, we have the privilege of helping visitors from around the world to connect with the art on view. But obviously we are constrained with the number of people that we can serve each day and. Traditionally these people have been have to be on site at a certain time or a certain place. So at the same time, we also know that has a really ever expanding audience of people who really engage with us primarily. Merrily through moma.org, through social media, and other digital avenues, so people who, you know, may not have the opportunity to actually be here physically. So the advantage that we see of experimenting with this new format is. Anyone with an internet connection can learn alongside us, whether you are viewing this in real time, or whether you are watching the digital archive, on YouTube, and actually, this, this is being recorded and will be available on YouTube afterwards, on the event page and also through the MoMA, channel, YouTube channel. So, the open insurable nature of this format also inlines really closely with the way that we approach content both on site and online. Some of you may already, or I'm hoping that some of you are already aware of of. Fight that we released this past year called MoMa learning, which debuted a few months ago it's at moma.org/momalearning. The driving goal behind the site is to provide free digital resources for anyone interested in learning about and teaching about modern contemporary art. And it's designed not only for teachers and students but. But also for life long learners so people who are really interested in learning about art or teaching about art, but may not be enrolled in any formal program. So whe, when you go to MoMA learning you'll see that we've made an effort to provide not only great content, but also customizable resources that you can take and kind of run with on your own. So we have follow-up questions and activities, we have a ton of audio and video that we've produced through the years. And then we also have customizable, and downloadable slide shows, and work sheets that, that you can edit and use and. In, in the ways that are helpful for you. So the Hangout really is an extension of the, this desire to kind of open up our education to a wider audience. And to, to make it, to lower the barriers to this. And, and this idea is itself, an outgrowth of the way that we teach in the galleries. I think often times there is a perception that art and art history is the exclusive realm of an expert elite. But, we're hoping that this art hang and future events like this can help dispel this notion. Clearly there is a huge role for. Experts in museums. In fact one of the coolest things that I find about working at is that some of the leading thinkers, curators, scholars, conservators, educators, researchers thinkers of all kinds are, are. Assembled everyday under one roof and working side by side. And, and of course we have the privilege of working with artists themselves and their estates. So, you know, these are people who have a level of knowledge that goes really deep beneath the surface of a work of art. But having said that, we as educators also know that learning goes beyond the gaining expertise or factual knowledge. And there are many possible ways to engage with and to look at a work of art. So,. And as educators, we really see ourselves as facilitators. We provide a, kind of, basic scaffolding. You know, we can provide like, biographical information, we can tell, tell you about a technique, or a material. But the ultimate goal, I think, is to not give you facts, but to kind of give you tools and strategies, so that you can construct your own interpretations of what you see and experience here at MoMA. So. You, we don't think that you need a degree in art history to have a really meaningful engagement with, a work of art, but, but it really does require a willingness to listen and to slow down and to use, engage all of your senses. And to also listen. And to think critically and ask a ton of questions. So, the, this is what exactly we're going to be doing today. That's the format we're going to be testing out. We'll be modeling and sharing some of the same tools and strategies that educators use every day in the galleries. Or at least one of the approaches that educators use. In the galleries. And our hope is that the, the fine people that we've invited today, to participate today and those of you who are watching, will be able to use these same methods, take them, run with them the next time you have an encounter with a work of art. So, for this kick-off we have assembled an esteemed panel of non-experts, who are participants, who are certainly experts in their own field, but not necessarily, with a, an extensive background in art history. So, what we're going to be doing is exploring the theme of identity through the lens of. A few specific works in the collection. And along the way we're going to tap into some digital resources. That anyone can use should you desire to, to do a deeper dive later on. So, before I begin maybe you guys can all unmute yourselves now. Thanks for, thanks for doing that. And maybe we can just. Actually, you know, be, before I do that, I wanted to reiterate that while we can only have a few invited guests actually on camera today, you who are watching at home can actually participate. Participate by posting your questions and comments to the event page. And. Let's see, sorry. [NOISE] Okay, okay. So, so I can actually, your questions and comments in the event page, or by tweeting at MoMA Learning with the #, ArtHang. This is a complete experiment for us, so please fell free to give us feedback on, on what you think about this as well. So, without further ado, I'm going to ask each of our participants maybe starting from left to right to just go around a briefly introduce yourselves. Maybe just say your first name, where you're coming from, and then maybe a quick something about yourself. >> Yeah, so I'm going to start on the left. >> I'm Sarah, I go to Charter School and I mean, this is my first year here, so it's been quite an experience. >> Awesome. >> I'm Elvis and I also go to Charter school, obviously. [LAUGH] going here for like, five, six years, yeah. >> Great. >> Where's Portland, Oregon? >> Okay and next up. >> I'm Jessica, I'm associate educator of school visits and partnerships here at MoMa. >> Next? >> Hi everyone, I'm Jessy, I'm based in Alexander Virginia, and I work for a software company, so I'm very excited to be doing something like very creative with art today, so. >> Hello? And? >> My name is Katherine, I'm out here in San Francisco, I have a sewing school out here, and it's, I started being interested in art because my son is an aspiring artist and he goes to Group [INAUDIBLE] for the arts. So we've been going to a lot more museums ever since he started seeing more art. >> Awesome. >> I'm Katie and I'm in Annapolis, Maryland. I'm a veterinarian. So this is for me totally outside of my realm right now, and a little bit nervous. But [LAUGH] so excited to be here. And I'm looking forward to it. >> Hey, everybody. I'm Lisa Mazola and I'm the assistant director of school and teacher programs here at the Museum of Modern Art. Excited to be here with you. >> And I'm Robin and I work for Google our of Seattle. And this is pretty different from my normal job, so I'm pretty excited. [LAUGH] >> My name is Taylor Banson I live in San Francisco, and I do architectural design. And just happy to be involved and this is new and cool experience. So-. >> Well, [SOUND] awesome. So, thank you all for coming today, and so now I'm going to actually turn it over to Jessica, who will be leading us through a, a quick ice breaker activity. Take it away Jessica. >> All right, so, we're going to be exploring the theme of identity through two works of art this evening, and how we thought we might start is actually getting you guys to think about your own identity a little bit first. Think about how we sort of define identity for ourselves and then for, for others. So, if we could start, if everyone could grab that paper and pencil in front of you, and start by just quickly without thinking to much about it, write down the first three words that you think of, when you think about your own identity. [SOUND]. All right, everybody have three words? [SOUND]. All right. So, just look at your words for a second and think for a minute about the kinds of words that you wrote. Think about are they roles? Are they character traits? Are they things that you were born with? Are they things that are fairly new to your identity? And it so the next step of this before you think too hard about that, is to scratch one of those off the list. You have to get rid of one of the three that you wrote down. Don't think too hard. Okay, so does any, we don't have a lot of time for people to share their actual words, and I'm sure that some of them are, are private. But we can talk a little bit about the kinds of words that we wrote. So maybe just talk about, if, if people could answer the question of, how did it feel to get rid of that first one, and sort of how did you choose? >> Yeah, should we start? >> Anybody, yep. Go ahead. >> I crossed off clothing just because it's not as deep as I could go. I could go a lot deeper with things I like to do all of the time instead of what I wear everyday. >> Great, great. Anyone else? want to share like how it felt to scratch off that first one? >> Sure, I'll share. It was hard. It was tough. I actually had to like really think about it. I crossed off tattoos for me. [LAUGH] But I love women you know, as kind of like the, the, you know, obviously gender, you know, is a major form of identity, but I crossed off the tattoos, which, you know, are so important to me. So it, it was a tough choice. >> Okay, good. Anybody else have an example or want to share how it felt to let one of those go? >> Yeah sure I wrote characters when I first worked, then I put humor and integrity and I realized those were both character traits, so I crossed out character. >> Hm, okay good, so you have these other two left over that are more specific. Yes. >> Great, great. So I think everybody sort of had this experience, where they wind up scratching off ones that maybe you just feel like you could kind of let go, or maybe that are something that you wear, something on you, but not something inside of you. So the next step to this is you're going to scratch off one more, so that you're left with just one. [SOUND]. Okay, so does anybody want to share about how it felt to scratch a second one off and then how it feels to be left with the one you're left with? It's tough [LAUGH]. Okay so it's the one I'm left with. >> Okay, so you're a little uncomfortable with the one you're left with? >> I'm somewhat comfortable. [LAUGH]. There's music and computers were what's left. >> Uh-huh. >> And are like my main passions but music's probably for that. >> Okay, okay so it made you feel almost like you had to choose these things that were so important to you. Which one was the most important? >> Music's choice. >> Any body else? >> I definitely found it difficult. It was one of those things where I am left with one word that I aspire to be. >> Mm-hm. >> And something that I would like to be known for, so something that I kind of surround my life with as opposed to maybe like my other two words were something that I was previously known for. >> Okay, great. So it's kind of co, connected to this identity of like, where we hope to go, where we hope to what we hope to accomplish in some ways. Anybody else? >> I actually thought it was easier crossing off the second one at least for me. Maybe having crossed off the first one, I was ready to, or more ready to let go of the second one. >> Hm. >> So-. >> And then were you more comfortable with the one you were left with? >> That I was left with, yeah. So, it was just, it was easier for me to embrace that. >> Great. Anybody else want to share? >> I think it was tough, it was tough taking off one, and to take off the other was even harder, but what i took off is what I am physically and also the roles I play. >> Mmhmm. >> So now I'm left with my beliefs. >> Great. Great, so i think this real-, activity really helps us to think about how we define our own identity and start to look at these different things that could make up an identity. Sometimes, like i said before, things that you're born with, sometimes it's how you see yourself versus how the world sees you. So that's a whole other side of it, too, and I also think this activity points out sort of the power of these words. That we sort of hold on to these words, or these ideas about ourself, or these beliefs. That really, you know, resonate and they're sort of hard to let go if we have to, like in an activity like this. And I think it's a good starting point to starting to look at two works of art where we're thinking a lot about the subjects identity and what we can see in the subjects, what we can learn about the subjects identity through these works. But also how that might interplay with the identity of the artist. So now I'll pass it on to Lisa who's going to facilitate our first work. >> Thank you Jessica. So, the first work that we're going to look at as we explore identity is actually a photograph, by the artist Cindy Sherman. So, in just a moment that's going to come up on the screen. And as that's getting loaded, I'm just going to give you a sense of the object that you're about to see. It's an eight by ten, photograph. So, a little bit smaller than standard piece of paper, and I think the image is going to come up any minute. [SOUND] Okay. Okay. So here's our image, and what I'd like you guys to do is just take a moment to look at it. So i'm just going to give you about 30 seconds just, just notice this image. Really let yourself take it in. What do you guys notice? What's, what's going on here? Anybody can start. >> It seems like the, the photos play into gender roles a lot. >> Yeah, tell us more about that Sarah, like, what, what's, what's speaking gender roles to you? What do you, what do you actually see here in the image that's, that's saying that to you? >> Well there's physically a woman at a kitchen, but it almost looks like she doesn't really want to be there or doing what she's supposed to be doing. That's socially accepted. But. >> It's a. Mm-hm. Go ahead. >> Yeah, no, go ahead. >> That, that's it. [LAUGH]. >> Well, it's interesting, 'cause you're talking about one, the setting of the image, right? So when we look at images, and specifically this image, we can see a subject, right? You talked about a woman in a setting, right? And you talked about her being in a kitchen, and it's interesting because you talked about this idea of her, in a particular kind of role. What else do you guys notice? What else is going on here? >> Sorry, it like, I was needed. I mean, I noticed her body language is so dramatic. In fact, like the, the handle of the pot, I actually thought that it was a, at first when I saw it, I thought it was a knife. >> Mm-hm. >> What kind of, towards her heart. Mm-hm. >> Which was very interesting. >> So, it is interesting. So the first thing that you talked about is the, is the actual pose of the figure. So, often when we looks at work, works of art that have figures in them we can talk about the, the pose or the gesture, right? So the way the body's been positioned, the way the hands are positioned, even the expression of the figure. And you're talking about the, also this relationship of this subject, this character in this particular setting, right? And when we look to the left side there is this sort of dramatic, kind of close up sense, right? So the figure is sort of set back and then, there's this sort of slightly fuzzy handle that you can see on the pot and that's interesting. I've never thought about that before. That idea of it kind of pointing directly, kind of in line with the chest of the figure, right? And what did, you said her pose was dramatic. Can you tell us more about that? What is speaking dramatic to you? >> I mean, it, it, it almost seems like, like something just happened? Like I mean she's clutching her stomach. Like is she pregnant? Does she have a stomach-ache? You know, did she get into a fight with her you know, husband? I mean her partner? >> Mm-hm. >> Like it just you know, there, there definitely seems to be. Like a story there. >> Mm-hm. >> Around just the interaction with the person off the camera. >> So that's interesting. This idea of the person off camera. Does anybody want to add to that idea? So now we have this idea of, well, what's happening just out of the frame, right? So based on her pose, or gesture, we're getting the sense of this other kind of action. Right? That's like sort of happening over, like on her left side. What do you guys think of that? Anyone want to add on to that? To this idea of a story that could be here? >> Whatev-,I don't know when this picture was taken, but it looks, like, so the 1950s, to me. >> Yeah, what's, what's saying the 1950s to you? >> Like, the way she's dressing, her hairstyle, the fact it's in, like, black and white. Yeah, so it's [CROSSTALK]. Mm-hm. >> Modern >> Okay, so you're getting a sense of the, the time, based on her costume, right. So we can also talk about the, the clothing that she's wearing, her hairstyle, right. Is it situating her in a time period? Yeah, what else-. >> [CROSSTALK] add to that. I immediately noticed the, the Martin salt and the Ivory soap. That really drew my eye immediately. And that's sort of a timeless, those are sort of timeless items. And for some reason I was drawn to those two items before I even looked at her face. >> Oh. That's interesting. Right? So, this idea of these like sort of icons or things that we know of, right? These things that >> Yeah. >> the mind already knows that it can kind of gravitate towards. Yeah. >> Exactly. >> It's really interesting. Yeah. What else do you notice? Is there anything else going on, sort of in the setting? Anything else about the character? What else is going on here? [CROSSTALK]. >> Same thoughts as everyone else, the only thing I didn't catch on to was the, hand, handle. But one thing that strikes me is we're not, maybe not just looking at something about, a role as a woman who does domestic chores and things like that. But I also see that the kitchen is very, very simple. So, she's unhappy with something, it could be with her simple life if she wants something for extravagant. >> Oh, that's interesting, right? So, it's funny, right? 'Cause we can, we can start to think about just based on all those things you noticed right? Just looking at the image, thinking about what she is wearing, where is she, right? All these things that have been put together and already you guys are starting to talk about this idea of gender roles, right? Does she want to be in this place? What does she sort of inspiring off to, right? Is it something, you know, what, what is it that she is looking literally looking towards right? Or is there somewhere else she wants to be? So this is actually an image that Cindy Sherman made. It's one of 70 images, from a series called The Untitled Film Stills. And this particular image is called Untitled Film Still Number Three. And throughout her career, you know, Cindy Sherman has really spent a lot of time exploring sort of the construction of identity. And she does that through this process of actually, playing roles in her images and her photographs, and also, in the way that she produces them. So. In these particular images, this untitled film series she's not only the artist, she's also the subject of the photo, this is her in the photo. But she also stylizes herself, she's also her own makeup artist. So she's, she's choosing the sets. She's choosing the styling and she's also, you know, placing her hair. So she's taking on a lot of roles and actually I am going to have Steph just go ahead and like take you through a few other images, just so you can get a sense of this series, while I continue to just share a little bit more information. And it's interesting because you guys, just by looking at these images, were really kind of exploring, not only, her kind of take on identity, right, but she's also, she's showing us about identity in different ways, right? She's commenting on sort of cliched female roles and things like the career girl, the bombshell, the vamp. Among others, and you know, she, she staged many of these shots interior scenes like Untitled Number Three, in her own apartment. She, as I said was the artist or who, you know, made the images. She also had friends that would help her in sort of the production of some of them. So it's interesting right, because I'm just curious what you guys think. How does this image relate to our conversation that we had earlier about identity during the ice breaker? How, how does this relate? Right? How we, when we think about the subject's identity, what, what are we learning about her identity? Are we learning anything about her identity. >> I think so. It, it kind of, it like, looks like to me that she's like this. [INAUDIBLE] like 1950's housewife. She definitely looks really uncomfortable with it. >> Yeah tell us more about that. >> Ha. >> What's the uncom, yeah, yeah, what do you think is uncom, yeah, tell us. I'm sorry go ahead. >> It just, it looks like that she's, she's like looking somewhere else that she'd rather be. >> Uh-huh. >> And maybe she'd like, rather be outside or something. I don't what's over there, but. [LAUGH] >> Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree. It's funny because I guess someone on Twitter I guess made a comment that the center of the image seems very empty. There's a sense of emptiness, right. Physically I think the person probably meant, but it's funny because I'm thinking about what you're saying about. Her wanting to be someplace else. And just to let you guys know, this image was actually made in 1977. So, I think it was Tao who was talking about, or maybe it was you, Elvis, actually who was asking about, or made the comment about 1950s. So it's interesting, right, to think of that piece knowing when the work of art was made, in 1977. So what about the rest of you? What, what else are we learning about, the subject's identity here? Or even the artist's identity? >> Well I think he mentioned, you know, what's going on beyond the frame, I mean there's almost a sense of [INAUDIBLE]. Kind of being coaxed out of her in terms of, you know, just, identity is being not always forced but onto her, but projected onto her. >> Yeah. >> In a sense. You know, it's just, really, this person that we're seeing and, and the idea that her identity is you know, is changeable, that always. What it seems. >> Yeah, mm-hm. That's really interesting, right? This idea of you know, these things aren't, aren't fixed, right. That, that can change, things can change. And sometimes we have something that we project, right, and sometimes it's something that we hope or aspire to project, right, and. You know there is this sort of inside outside thing that kind of happens in terms of, you know what we present to the world and were kind of experiencing ourselves? Anybody else want to comment on, on this work? >> You know, you know just, just to tack on what Katie was saying, the, the whole idea of emptiness and kind of maybe somebody else is projecting her identity. I mean the fact that her head is cut off. >> Mm-hm. >> Literally, literally her brain is not in the shot. >> Mm-hm. Mm-hm. >> You know? Like half of her eye is kind of you know? So I mean just physically she's literally not all there. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So in the sense of like how like is she even capable of choosing her identity? Yeah, that's really interesting, right? So the artist, you know, Cindy Sherman, has really very specifically given us, a scene that she wants to give us, right? And one of the other things that she said, which is really interesting, is that she actually was specifically trying to not kind of project this sort of over emotion. She made a comment about how in film stills there's usually this sort of intense over acting, right? So she's really kind of thinking about that as she's very specifically constructing it, right? And the framing is very much part of that as well. Anybody else? Yeah. >> She's very shy and like she doesn't know how to or doesn't want to speak up [INAUDIBLE], what she's feeling. >> Uh-huh, yeah. >> Yeah, that's not. >> Yeah, go ahead Robert. >> Is that like, exactly, to have that point. She seems shy, but at the same time like her discontent is just like, it, it just spills out onto the page. >> Mm-hm. That's great. So I'm actually going to pass things over to Jessica, because she actually has another work of art that she wants to share with you. Just to keep building on this idea of artists, and their expression of identity. [SOUND]. >> Un-mute, un-mute. >> There you go. >> Thank you, okay, so let's look at this work of art. And just to give you guys a sense, because we're looking at this on the computer, it's hard to tell a sense of scale. So this is a painting. And the scale is seven feet by nine feet. So, have a look at it just like we did with Lisa's work. And just look at it for a few minutes and kind of give it, yourself the time to think about your own thoughts. Are you guys all able to see the big image? [CROSSTALK]. >> Yes, okay, that's great. Just, just want to check. Okay, so, what kinds of things are we noticing? >> He looks like a vay well off man, like sitting almost in garbage. You know, kind of realizing what it's like to live the almost the opposite of his life. >> Okay, so what makes you say that he looks well off? What do you see? >> A clean suit, you know, like nice shoes. Mm-hm. >> His hair looks well done and groomed. >> Okay, good. Anyone else. >> He just looks like he's like, very satisfied with the way things are going for him. >> Mm-hm. >> Okay. What, what about him looks satisfied? Like, what do you see him doing? How it's like like, he has like, he is like, resting his like chin on his hand, legs crossed, like leaning is not very, just looks like he doesn't really care very much. >> Great, so it's like his posture, the way he's sitting there, the way he's dressed, the way his head is turned. Good, what else do you, what else is everyone noticing. >> Well I mean just the context of a couch on a street corner is bizarre. I mean just everything just kind of seems out of place. Right, you know? I mean is he even sitting on a, like a sofa, like is it even like a like an actual kind of sofa chair or like kind of, is he just sitting on like the wires of the couch, like it actually looks quite uncomfortable to me. [LAUGH] So, you know, just like the place and everything, just is really kind of out of context. >> Okay, great. So there's sort of this out of context slash uncomfortable feeling about the whole thing. >> Mm-hm. >> Anybody else? Well, it looks like the man. Maybe that couch he's on is his, is his couch. because it looks like a pretty nice couch. >> Mm-hm. >> And so hopefully you wouldn't see that someone just threw it out with the on the street. And it's kind of like. Maybe he's been thrown out with the couch and he's totally fine with that. >> Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Okay so it looks like it might be, based on we were right, what we were noticing about him, it looks like this couch might have some relation to him. It might be his. >> Yes. >> What about the environment? What are we noticing about the environment in general? >> I'm trying to place the environment, and it looks to me like New York City, because the few times I've been there they, they pile trash on the corners. >> Mm-hm. >> But I don't know if it's that specific. But it seems like he might just be taking a break from the hustle and bustle of. I don't know, corporate or office life maybe. >> Okay, What makes you say cor, corporate office? >> Probably the suit and the shoes and it appears to be smoking a cigarette too, although I'm not. Really sure, is that, is that the case? I, I can't, I can't see that closely, but, >> Yeah, I don't think he is, but he has, he's kind of holding his hand like that. >> Oh, okay. >> Where it's right under his chin and he's kind of looking off as if he might, you know, might be. I can see why you'd say that. And yeah, the environment is like very urban and it gives the sense that there's a lot happening around him. [CROSSTALK] Well there aren't many people in this immediate area, it looks to me like he's just taking a moment [LAUGH] out. >> Can I just add that we have Will Crow on Twitter, just posted a question. It says that odd a man sitting on the couch in the street, why? Okay. Good. So, one, you know, Jessie talked about that sort of, like the contradictions of this picture. And what are we thinking about that, sort of this man in a suit kind of looking very relaxed or like he's taking a break? And maybe even the couch looks a little fancy but. You know, he's on the corner by the trash. So, what, what other kinds of contradictions are we seeing? >> I, I feel like it says like confidence. Like, he's not hiding. Like, he is in this different environment that he's used to, like given the suit. And like the surroundings of trash >> Mm-hm. >> And like the framing of the picture seems to be like all pointed towards him. Like the sidewalk's lines are directed at his head. The lamp post kind of brings your attention down onto him sitting on this couch. >> Mm-hm. >> And he just like has an. Like almost like an arrogance about him. >> Okay, so you're going to talk about the composition where the whole corner of that street like points towards him and the pole even divides the, the painting right in half where he's like right at the center of it. So it's kind of everything drawing your eye to him. Yeah, exactly. >> And is anyone else noticing anything, you know, we're talking about identity. What, what are we kind of getting a, about this person's identity based on you know, kind of how he looks, how he's sitting and where he is? I think he is European because he's crossing his legs. [LAUGH]. >> But, but [INAUDIBLE] I don't know, like I, I, I don't see. I have a different take on kind of his body language, like to me it looks more like contemplative. Versus confident. >> Okay. >> You know, he just looks like he's like scratching his chin and you know, maybe deciding, right? You know, maybe he's at a crossroads you know, in his life. And there's all these things coming at him like the, you know, it's interesting when you see like the half of the car kind of barreling towards him. You know. It seems like he's at a crossroads. And he's contemplating. >> Okay. >> Next, next steps. >> Good. Anyone else? >> Yeah. I agree with Jessie. I think he, I mean he looks kind of comfortable. But also somewhat maybe undecided. And I like the idea of the crossroads. He's kind of at the fourth, the four corner. >> Uh-huh. >> But also the idea that you know, is he, is he part of the trash? Or did he just stop and take a rest? And is the trash part, or the couch part of the trash? Or. Mm-hm. So, interesting questions arise. >> Someone on Will Crow again he's very active, on Twitter says he seems adrift with his thoughts internal but exposed on the street. All right, good. So there's this kind of like everyone's feeling this real contradiction. You know, this man in this suit on the couch near the trash. But some people are sort of seeing it in different ways than others. If we're kind of getting a sense a little bit of his identity for you, you know, why do you think this man would be sort of sitting on the couch like this? This one person said maybe he's taking a time out of the hustle and bustle. Any other ideas? >> What year was this, was this made? >> So this work was painted in 1981. >> Okay. I'm not sure it will put but >> Mm-hm. I just thought that maybe it could be some sort of like, economic crash or something. >> Uh-huh. Okay, right. Going back to the idea that maybe he's like, a businessman, or he works in the stock market or something like that based on how he's dressed? >> Also, notice that no one's looking at him. In real life if you saw a businessman, like crossing his legs, looking. Like off to the side, like he's contemplating something just sitting on couch. >> Mm-hm. >> That was random. >> A lot of people would be looking. [LAUGH] >> Yeah. >> It's kind of odd. >> Well, and it is odd and it almost you know, sort of says a lot about the fact that he's sitting there in sort of a relaxed. Manner. Right? Because he is in such of this weird, sort of, you know, contradictory environment. But he seems very relaxed. So I'm going to give you a little information and see if that, sort of changes the way. We're seeing this picture, so again this is a very large painting. It's seven by nine feet and it is paint, well the artist is Martin Kippenberger, and it's this painting is actually a part of his series. Called Dear Painter Paint For Me. And he actually set up the scene, had the photograph taken of himself sitting on the couch, and hired a billboard painter to paint the painting for him. So, how does that change how we're seeing this, this setting, this man? Hm. >> We know it's the artist. We know he put himself in this situation. And we know he had somebody else paint the picture of him in this environment. How does that change the way we're seeing him? As far as interpretation goes, it makes less sense. [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] >> It makes less sense? >> Makes less sense. >> Okay. >> Is the the artist the painter himself? Right, so the artist Martin Kippenburger, is not the person who painted this with his hands. >> Right, but is he a painter? >> He is, he is an artist, he makes many different kinds of works of art. >> I would say maybe he feels very comfortable in his loneliness. >> Mm-hm. Why do you say that? >> Well because the, the painting is very stark. And there's no one else around, really, except those figures in the background. And he just seems very content so. >> Mm-hm. You know, I, I'm not sure if that was the intent. But that's kind of what I'm get, gathering from that. >> Okay, so that idea of like confidence. >> Yeah. And just being kind of comfortable. In his own world. >> Mm-hm. >> Without many people, necessarily. [LAUGH] Around here. >> Yeah, and, and playing off that point, I, I wonder if he just like, walked down the street one day, and saw this like, drab place and said, you know what, I need to be the center of this picture. >> Mm-hm. >> Mm-hm. >> Because it's I feel like I am. >> Mm. >> Now I have a, I have a different take. I mean, if he's putting himself in with the trash, like, I think that that says something about his own, like, his own identity, right, so exploring identity, you know, I mean, to me that the couch looks dirty. >> Mm-hm. >> And kind of of gross. >> [LAUGH]. >> I, I, you know, [LAUGH] I wouldn't sit on the couch in middle street with a bunch of trash. That would mean in the sense of like devaluing-. >> Hm. >> Himself, on some level is how I see it. >> So Jessie, I'm curious what you think. Someone on the Twitter feed wrote in contrast to what you just said, that the Lincoln car in the background adds this identity, this idea of succe, successful and wealth here. What do you? >> [INAUDIBLE]. >> I'm curious, what do you think about that? >> So I would say it's almost like what he can't have. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Right, maybe that's, you know, he's aspiring to that, or you know, that's a kind of outside his reach, right, it's above his head. He's no-where near it. He's on this trashy. >> Okay. >> Couch. In the middle of the street [LAUGH] you know? >> So we're getting a sense, a little bit, we're talking about, like, his identity as a person, and I'm curious what you guys think about his identity as an artist and what he's communicating to us about that. Mm, I think he's even obviously, I mean confident enough to have another artist means him or I think one of it is. >> Yeah, so that idea that he was just, I mean again, don't forget the title of the series is Dear Painter, Paint For Me, it's sort of a command. So he, yeah, he's sitting in this, on this couch and right, this comfort with someone painting him. >> Mm-hm. >> So do you see that in the picture? >> Portraying him, yeah. Jessica there is a really interesting comment from @PGCain from Twitter, he says it makes me sad that he didn't paint it, I think about the person who physically painted it and if he knows,. >> Mm-hm, okay. >> Which I think is really interesting. And also someone also said that the Lincoln car in the background adds to his I, oh, sorry we've already gone through that one I think. >> [LAUGH]. >> Sorry. >> Yeah, but I do think it's interesting, sorry, I don't want to take over the conversation but I think it's interesting, it just occurred to me that he's in this urban environment which is totally dominated by storefronts and billboards. And he chose to go to a billboard painter. To, to, to actually produce the painting for him. It just occurred to me, just now. >> Well, it's interesting that you say that because I think we, you know, think about this sort of command, and like someone said on Twitter, they think about the poor guy who painted these, however he, the billboard painter actually painted all of Kippenberger, all of this series. It was the same guy. And his name was I think Werner. And they had a well almost a partnership where they, you know, Kippenberger would sort of set up the scene and the billboard painter would paint the scene for him. So I'm wondering what that makes you guys think about in terms of that relationship and, again, back to his identity as an artist. >> Well, I mean, it's much more collaborative. >> Mm-hm. >> And you know, just in the sense of like sharing creativity. >> Mm-hm. >> You know, brainstorming with, with someone, you know, it's kind of a, a partnership. I mean, it makes me feel better about it it versus just some random boring guy that maybe didn't get credit. >> Mm-hm. >> For it. >> And I think it's interesting. It's sort of flipping the script of artist and subject. So this is artist being the subject and actually collaborating and, you know, I think that's a, an interesting concepts in itself. >> Mm-hm. Right, exactly. And would you guys say that then, you know, through all of this, that we actually do get a sense of Martin Kippenberger's identity through this work? Or that we don't? >> It's kind of funny you asked that, because I was just thinking that, you know, it's kind of interesting. He puts himself in there, and, but yet he has someone else painted, because it's kind of like him showing himself and he kind of wants the artist take on it, too. >> Hm, so he's putting himself there but then an artist is interpreting him. >> So the the art, something different that he doesn't think of himself maybe came through. >> Hm-mm. >> Another thing I want to add till I noticed while we were all chatting here, is, we were talking about dealing with the trash was he just by the trash, he was part of trash. One thing I just noticed is that it looks like, anyways, that people in black, the couch is black, the trash is black and the Lincoln Car Town Car, or whatever in the background is black too. It sounds like maybe that color he's kind of saying that all those things kind of define him. >> Hm, so again we're sort of coming back to that idea where some people feel like he's associating himself with the environment, and some people feel that he's a direct contrast to his environment. Any other comments about the, you know, whether we are getting a sense of his identity through this work? >> I think it kind of shows that like, I don't know that is that he like doesn't think that you necessarily have to have what people will consider to be artistic skills, to be an artist, like it's more about the idea. >> Mm-hm. >> Mm-hm. >> So like, because if you just had someone paint the street corner, that's the Sullivan Street corner, [INAUDIBLE] you could add some sort of meaning to it. >> Mm-hm. >> There's, there's some sort of intention. >> Great, and actually, it's interesting you say that, because I have a quote from Martin Kippenberger. And he said, I'm rather like a traveling salesman, ideal and ideas. I do much more for people than just paint pictures. >> I was just going to say, I got a sense that he's, he's trying to come off as m-, as a professional. Maybe someone doesn't always think of an artist as wearing a suit and tie in that context. So. >> Mm-hm. >> Right, so almost he, if he separates himself from making, the making the actual like materials and the making, he almost becomes, in your words, sort of more professional or more separated out as sort of the director of the experience. >> Right. [CROSSTALK]. >> Yeah. >> Sorry Jessica, someone Doug Brannon from Twitter said the quote, unquote, billboard painter is an accomplished artist making his living painting billboards. So, I think it, it's really interesting that, you know, maybe, I don't want to interpret for Doug Brannon, but you know, the, the kind of dichotomy that we make between someone who's a sign painter and someone who's a fine artist. >> Mm-hm. >> You know, maybe that's another aspect of this search for. >> Yeah, and actually, you know, on the sort of wall label the artist is listed as Martin Kippenberger however he signed the paintings Werner Kippenberger. So sort of putting both of their names on the work themselves even though the, the title says, Dear Painter, Paint for Me, so it's an interesting sort of complex. Issue. And I think that one, one of the things that this work shows is that an artist's identity can come through. But sometimes, it's, well, many times, it's very, very constructed for the viewer. And there's certain things that maybe they don't intend to show us. And then there are other things that they are very carefully constructing about what we see. So hopefully this gave you something to think about around like, identity, and the artist's identity versus the subject's. As in both these two works, the line between those things is very fuzzy. Does anybody have any last minute thoughts or questions about any of the two works that we've looked at? >> Yeah. I thought that I was wondering if he was almost giving the billboard painter a chance to become more of, I guess, bigger than he is. >> Mm-hm. >> Or give him a chance to really show what he can do through this more finer painting. >> That's great. It's almost the idea. >> Yeah. >> That he sort of used his position to be able to share with people what this artist, what this billboard painter can do. >> Yeah. >> Mm-hm. >> Are there any other. >> And I think it. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> I was going to say, I think it brings up interesting questions, too, about collaboration and who gets credit for what. I know in, in my profession, that comes up a lot. >> Mm-hm. >> That's always interesting when you have a collaborative effort and, you know, there's, there can be conflict around it or, you know, or agreement. But that's given the, you know, how, how he did this, that definitely brings up a lot of those questions. And I think that's really interesting, as well. >> Yeah. And like, that idea of like, who does the work. >> Yeah. >> Is something that comes up in a lot of areas, like you're saying, not just art. >> Yeah. >> Right. Any other ideas about how the two works of art made you think about identity? >> Well, I just, I think it's interesting that everybody has their own unique perspective, right? So it's almost like everybody's identity really colors, right, like the lenses in which they see the world and then art. >> Mm-hm. >> So it was, it was really interesting to kind of hear the, the differences in opinions. Fascinating to me. >> Oh, that's great. And definitely what, you know, our own identities make us see everything differently, including these works that we are all looking at today. Thanks, you guys, for sharing your thoughts. It was really. >> Yeah, great. >> Really interesting conversation. You know, I see these works a lot because we're here. And it's amazing how when you are with people, it doesn't matter how often you look at something. When you get a group of people to gather around, you start to see things in the work of art you've never seen before. And that always blows my mind how that happens so much. So thank you for, for letting me see things that I didn't see before. >> Mm-hm. Yeah, so thank you all so much for joining us today for our first ArtHang. It was like, you guys just completely blew my mind [LAUGH] with all of your-. >> You guys were amazing. >> Interpretations. Like, it's, it's so great being an educator because every time you you look at a work of art with a new group of people, like, all this new stuff comes out. And, yeah. I'm just, it's, it's an amazing experience. So, so, all of the, the resources that we showed today are actually available free online. So, for example, let me just show you. So, so we really encourage you to go to MoMA.org and then also check out the MoMA Learning site. There is content really great thematic content about the Cindy Sherman. And then also at MoMA.org, there's a lot of videos featuring curators and also the, the artist Cindy Sherman herself. And then there's also a curator talking about Martin Kippenberger. So we really encourage you to kind of take advantage of some of these resources. Either just to kind of dive deeper on your own, or if you would like to, you know, use us in some of your own teaching and sharing. Also we want to encourage you to continue to share continue the conversation online. You can follow us on Facebook, MoMA K-12 Teachers, on @momalearning, and also on Google Plus under the MoMA Learning handle. We will be archiving this. This session has been recorded and will be archived for posterity on YouTube. And so. >> I would also like to recommend that everyone go on Twitter and search for, with the ArtHang hashtag. Because a lot people have been saying really interesting things about the works all, the whole time. So you can go and see what they were saying. >> Yeah. And we, yeah, we definitely, you know, we had so many, it's such we could only cover so many during our discussion. But yeah, definitely continue to follow the hashtag and, and keep the conversation going. So yeah. Thank you all so much for coming today. >> Great job everybody. >> Yay! >> Thank you. >> Thanks so much. >> Thanks for hanging with us. >> Yay. >> [LAUGH] >> Thank you. >> Bye, guys. >> Bye! >> Bye! >> Thanks for watching us at home, too. [LAUGH]. >> Bye! >> Thanks a bunch. >> Bye.
