Now you mentioned qualities you like to see them already present. Quantify, what qualities would you say are present in the leaders in which you're speaking of currently? >> Well, I'll give you three that I think are really interesting. Number one is the ability to listen and to have people feel like they're heard. I mean that's really important. You take most leaders that are effective and they are good listeners, but more importantly they help people feel like they're heard, feel like they're engaged. I think the second piece is the ability to read people. It's the ability to read those colors. The ability to, I start from the assumption, it's an interesting assumption that you're different than I am. >> Yes. >> Then we figure out all the ways that we're the same. The worst mistake somebody can make is, well, they're like me. So I like getting 12 page memos, it's everyone else gets. >> [LAUGH] >> Well, no, I start from the point of view they're not like me and how do we find, so I think the ability to read people. I think the third, which is a really interesting one, is the ability to activate and motivate. And I want to use the difference between, we use the word motivate a lot in leadership and I'm more interested in activate. And what I mean by activate is how do you start somebody? How do you start a team? And sometimes you start it with, you go to the whiteboard, and you talk about it. And sometimes you start it with a pep talk. And sometimes you start it by some quiet words or by letting by somebody else start it. Well, I want to activate, and then I want to motivate. And motivation means, also, having people know what their outcome is, and knowing what the goal is, and knowing that they can get resources and making an environment that's okay for them to fail. But I think those three things and here's probably the biggest thing I might be saying on this interview, is I think we lead the way other people lead us effective. So I think we look for and we're influenced by a leader that did those things. And if you've never been activated, if you've never been motivated, if you've never been listened to, if you've never had anybody perceive, then it's really impossible that you're going to know how to do that with other people. >> Absolutely. Absolutely, great. All right, now Elliott, let's talk about leadership and power. When you think about a organization, who's in charge? >> That's a tough one. And I think that's part of what you read. I think there's the power that's defined by the org chart. So who's at the top, who can hire and fire. And you gotta know what that is because if you screw up on that, you cannot be there long. Then I think there's power by knowledge. Who has the knowledge? And you walk into a high school, who's the real power in that high school? It may be the principal but you know it's the school secretary at the front desk who knows everything. So there's another form of power which is knowledge. And I think there's a third part of power which are the people that are connectors. That they are really good at connecting and at finding the resources. And I think it's all three, I mean, I don't have a formal label for each of those. But when I think of power, I think of those three. And I'll add a fourth, which is an awkward one, which is some of the biggest form of power is destruction. In other words, all you need is one really crappy human being who has a very destructive desire. I mean, I worked with somebody, and their goal was to do as little work as possible. So they had enormous power, because they would by word, deed and gesture make it so that other people weren't motivated. So as much a leader does in a positive way, all it takes is one toxic person in your organization and they can destroy a lot of that. And then It does matter who has the power. >> Yes. >> because if I'm here and they're here, they may not be around that much longer. I may find a way to cut them out of that org chart. >> Absolutely. So why is understanding this power key, or understanding power, the key to understanding leadership? >> Well, because I think ultimately if my goal was to understand my colors and make some strategic choices. I've got to understand which of those choices aren't going to have the ability to effectively do, okay? So, in any organization you sometimes do things not because it's the best choice but because that's what the people who you work for need you to do. I need to understand what's the level of risk taking. So my bet is you and I, both are pretty high risk takers. >> Absolutely. >> There are some really risk adversive people. And they're not bad people, they might be good managers, they might even be good leaders. But their DNA is they're risk advesive. If I know that, I better know that. I better understand that. Because I'm not going to be able to get things done unless I understand it and even figure out how to lower their perception of risk. So I might come to one of them and say, well I'm going to do a really controlled little experiment here and you shouldn't have to worry, it's very controlled. If I walk in and say, boy, I figured out how to use video to change the organization, they're just, they're going to aim for my knees and make me shorter. >> Yes. Who has the power to influence decision making? >> Everybody. >> Everyone? >> Every, but they have different forms of power. >> Absolutely. >> That secretary's power is knowledge, that in some place, people's power is connector, in some people's power it is where they are in the organization. I think everybody has. They don''t have the same and some have more than others, but it's universal, I think. >> Now, would you agree or disagree with a person who can come in and assess inside this organization, who has a different powers and different types of power. If you can to that type of assessment and understand where all the different powers lay and what type of power they possess, is that the person who has the most opportunity to influence decisions? >> Yeah, I think the highly perceptive person who is agile and in then using those perceptions, and I'll add one other slice to it, and is authentic. Because I know people who can do that, but they do it in a phony kind of way. >> Mm-hm. >> But I think leaders have to pass the sniff test or the authentic test, and to be authentic means it has to be true. >> Yes. >> It has to ring true, it has to feel authentic, it has to feel human. Yeah, I think that's the set of keys to it. >> Great. Last question for you. Last segment here. Does leadership really matter? And the reason why I say this, you know researchers and practitioners in the field have been debating the answer for more than five decades and cannot agree, does leadership really matter? >> Well, I'm going to maybe give you a surprising answer. Leadership matters more than leaders. If we define leaders as the important thing, which means it's the woman or the man with the stripes, and the hat, and the whip, I think increasingly leaders matter less. Because I think if we look in the corporations that I work with, the teams are more and more self directed, people are staying for a shorter period of time, people want to work on tasks but they aren't necessarily building lifelong careers. So I think leaders are in some ways less important. And I go to organizations regularly where I defy you to find the leaders with a capital L. But leadership, which is the ability of an individual, no matter what their role on the org chart, is to influence other people, to get performance from other people whether it be one or a team, is enormously important. I think it's what it's all about. So ironically in this sort of evolving world, more technology, more a different generation coming to the work place now, it may not be important for me to aspire to be a leader, but I truly aspire to have leadership skills. In the same sense, ironically, I may not become the manager, but I probably want to have some manager skills or management skills. So, I think leadership skills are going to become more pervasive, they're going to become more distributive, they're going to become more pushed out throughout the whole organization. >> Absolutely. We have more leaders with leadership styles and you have a better organization as a whole. You empowering people to be able to make critical decisions that are well thought out and logical. Absolutely. Well Elliot, I had few minutes of your time and thank you. This was a great interview. >> You seize the moment and this was a great conversation. >> So thank you, thank you for the interview. It has been a pleasure. >> Thank you very much.