>> Great, welcome back, I have Jocelyn Schiller in the in the studio with us today. She's a pediatrician at the University of Michigan. Jocelyn, what do you do? >> I'm the Pediatric Clerkship Director at the University of Michigan so I work with medical students and residents. I'm a hospitalist so I work with them on the wards. Great, thank you. Jocelyn is kind enough to do this role play in the previous video. And then is going to talk to us about how to provide feedback so that we can kind of have a conversation about it. So Jocelyn, what do you think you did well? >> Well, you know, I am glad that I took the time to sit down with the learner. And it was a quiet setting and we just had some time just to be quiet and think together. >> Mm-hm. >> And I'm glad I stuck to one topic because I think on the awards we often generalize about the whole experience and say. You did not do a good job, or you did a great job this week and we don't give specifics. So I'm glad that I stuck to one topic which was his oral presentation. >> Yeah that sounds good. And so when you, and, and, it sounds like his oral presentation was just terribly disorganized. >> Yeah. >> And that he, we got some data there but it wasn't very organized in the sens that you could have a sense of what was going on. >> Right. >> And you know we've talked about the Rhyme model, which is Lopane Garris model. Which is reporter, interpreter, manager, educator. Where do you think he fit in the rhyme model? And how can you kind of give him feedback using that? >> Yeah, that's a good question. You know I think. He got the reporter phase where he knew the facts about his patient. Maybe he could have been organized with it a little bit. But what I was trying to do was push him a little bit more to the interpreter role, where he was taking those facts and using them to develop his assessment and plan. And I think the assessment was what was missing, and I was trying to encourage that. I don't think he was at the manager role, I don't think he could manage his patient on his own, and I don't think he's quite at the educator role either, but the interpreter phase was what I was trying to get at. >> I agree, so he wasn't just spitting out a bunch of facts, but he was actually organizing the facts. It's based on this interpretation of what's going on, agreed. And I felt like you got that cro, that, that point across. At the end, do you think he had a sense of what he might have done well? >> You know, I'm not sure. Watching the video again I think I gave him some feedback, and I think he might have even disagreed. I think there's one point where he said, I thought I knew the patient well, and I disagreed, but. Maybe exploring that some more would have been better. >> Mm hm. I think it's, sometimes I think about making sure that I give them something positive to work on, so that it's reinforcing the good things that they do and not just that they feel like they're getting a lot of negative stuff, it's hard for them sometimes. >> Yeah, I agree, and so what other things might you have done differently? >> You know, I think I kind of rushed at my assessment of what he needed to work on and I just kind of spit out a plan really quickly, but I didn't really get a chance to think about whether that was a plan that was going to work for him- Mm-hm. >> And whether there were other methods that he wanted to go about organizing his presentations. So, I guess I could have explored his perspective a little bit more. >> Yeah, I think so. I think [INAUDIBLE] and I have been doing this workshop together for a while and one of the things we often talk about with participants in the workshop is that people remember 90% of what they do themselves, give or take, and only about ten percent of what we tell them. And so sometimes it's helpful to kind of extract what they think is good from them, and. Bad so that they remember it as opposed to telling them things. I find that they're more likely to remember it at that point. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's hard to do though sometimes because you're so anxious to tell them about what you know, what's going on or what you perceive that it takes a lot of work to work, to, to pull it out or extract it from them. Yeah. So I think in the, in the same way it might be helpful to be a little bit less direct. because I felt like you came up with a plan for him. As opposed to him coming up with his own plan. >> Yeah. I think I could explore his perspective and, and get his reflection on it a little bit better. >> Yeah. I agree. I agree. >> Well, thanks. >> Great. Thanks. >> I'll try to incorporate that next time. >> Okay. Sounds good. Thanks very much.