Great, welcome back. So you should have thought about the four steps to providing feedback using this video, and we're lee, looking at the spinal tap video. So Jocelyn and I are now going to kind of talk about how we might approach providing feedback to this learner. And so let's start with step one. Step one is preparing to give feedback. Jocelyn, what were some of the things that you might think about for that? >> I think preparation would be so important in this case. >> Mm-hm. >> Because you just watch the video and it's, it's painful to watch. >> It is. >> There are so many things that are wrong with it. And so I think thinking about the objectives. Do I want to talk about her sterile technique, her two big gloves and touching inappropriate areas. Or do I want to talk about how the patient was so uncomfortable and clearly was uncomfortable and the anesthetic wasn't working. >> Yeah. So I think thinking about which things will be the most important in this case, would be important. >> Yeah I agree. I think you risk you risk just completely overwhelming the learner if you try to address all of it. And it's hard to prioritize which one is most important but I think you really do have to choose whether or not you can talk about the communication of pain issues or whether or not we're going to talk about procedural things. Right, both of which are, are valid in this learner. And so that's kind of how we might think about preparing. We've talked about you want to make it expected and timely. Make sure it's in a private place. How would you go about getting the learner input. Like, how would you, how might you start of on this feedback? So just pretend that I'm the learner like, like today. >> I mean, I think I would just ask the learner, how do you think the procedure went. Can see what, what [CROSSTALK]. >> See what they got out of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And if the learner said something like well patient was just awful. You know, she wouldn't stay still, and she just was such a, a baby about pain control. >> Mm-hm. >> How would you try to address that? >> No, I think I'd give them a little bit of space to explore that a little. >> Mm-hm. >> But I think I'd have to throw in some questions of, if the pa, if the patient was complaining of pain, do you think the patient was experiencing pain? >> Yeah, exactly. And so you'd really kind of bring out the experience from the point of view of the learners- >> Right. >> They were describing it. >> Mm-hm. >> And really being able to understand it. And what about if if you decided that you were going to address the procedural problems that. In fact this learner had no idea. 'Cause the, the gloves were too big, and the needle was the small needle. >> Mm-hm. >> And just completely wrong. >> Yeah, then I think I might have them think about the whole procedure and, and review it. What materials would they need, and as we, as they talked through the different materials that they needed, we could give feedback along the way. >> That's a great idea, I mean, I think you're right. You might even pull out, a, a like one of the training LP trays and walk through the different pieces- >> Mm-hm. >> And have them walk through it, so you can say- >> Yeah. >> Well, no, that's not the right needle. [LAUGH] So that you can give them some real feedback for that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I agree. I think that, I think that would be good. And so, really kind of having a conversation about the learners so in the end, they understood what the, what, what the issues were. >> Right. >> Agree and then what might you recommend or, or try to get the learner to come up with in terms of, steps for improvement? Well you had met, you had mentioned pulling out a tray, so I think going through the steps, and talking about what they would need to do would be one of their improvements- >> Mm-hm. >> And that you could develop an action plan- >> Yeah. >> Of how they're going to practice. >> Yeah. >> a certain number of times. I think you could also just ask them what they want to do better. Because I got the sense that the learner did realize things were not going well. because in the end, she asked for help. >> Yeah. >> And realized that she needs to stop, so she's feeling flustered. Yeah. >> I think exploring that's more. It would be good. >> Yeah. I think you, I think you're right. I think often when we're teaching procedures it's helpful for people to have a mental check list. I think as experts we often do. We have a sense of, you know? For someone to do this and that. And you get, and we have a list of things that we go through. And I think that learners don't often have a mental check list. And so either encouraging her to create a mental checklist so that she follows it. >> Mm-hm. >> Or use someone elses, would be helpful so that she actually has a mental model of what it looks like. >> Right. >> Yeah. I agree, I think all of these things would be good. And clearly, she needs quite a bit of feedback [LAUGH] to get better. >> [LAUGH] Don't you think. >> Yeah. >> Right. I think she does. But hopefully she'll get there. >> Yeah. Great, thanks.