All right, so that was a procedure, and, and in some ways procedures are different. >> Mm-hm. >> In terms of entrustment. And I felt like that one really showed both a good and bad way to entrust. What did you think? >> I agree. You know, I think at the beginning Joe was doing a great job sort of walking her through it. And letting her try it, and then correcting her subtly if she needed correction. At the end, he just sort of took over, and it looked like he may be getting a little frustrated. But then after he did it, he never gave her the opportunity to do it herself. >> So she wouldn't have no idea how to look at the gall bladder, because he just kind of took over. >> Yeah. >> He just took the probe away, never gave her a chance. >> You see he's, he felt uncomfortable about it, because he said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you know? But then he didn't do anything about it. >> Yeah, yeah. And I think, in the beginning, he was very careful to say, you know, do this, do that, do this. And I think that really kind of helped her. >> And give her feedback also when she did something that needed correction. >> Mm-hm. The touchy one here was what do you do about the patients while you are teaching? >> Yeah. >> I mean, this is really hard for you because you got parents and kids. How do you manage that? >> Absolutely. >> It's, it's hard in a situation like this where there's no, you can't have a conversation outside of the room and come back, because you're actively doing the procedure. >> Mm-hm. >> Sometimes I acknowledge it sort of at the beginning. >> Mm-hm. >> And tell the patient, or you know, the patient and their family. I have a student with me today. She had done this a few times. >> Mm-hm. >> She's still learning. >> Mm-hm. >> And you know just sort of set that out there instead of having this kind of awk, awkward. >> Mm-hm. >> Discussion in the middle about, does she even know what she's doing? >> Mm-hm. >> You know, and then trying to provide feedback in a way, that doesn't undermine what the learner's doing. >> Mm-hm. >> So, you know obviously you need to correct them if they're doing something wrong. But instead of sort of taking to away from them and saying sorry I'm going to take over. >> Mm-hm >> Making it seem like, you know, you don't know what you're doing so I'm doing it. >> Yeah. >> Allowing them to, to do that a little more. >> And I think sometimes in particular with procedures what we'll do is say I'm going to do this now, and you're actually talking to you're, trainee [CROSSTALK] rather than, you, you appear as if you are talking to the patient, but you are talking to the trainee. >> Right, that is an excellent point [CROSSTALK]. >> It's hard, it's hard in this case I guess you'd have to say something like, the gallbladder is more to the right [LAUGH] [CROSSTALK] but with regular procedures it's much easier to do that. >> Absolutely. >> absolutely, yeah, and sometimes you even say things like, now remember your next step is, and then sort of say and give direction that might help prompt them of what, of what they're going to do. Even if they didn't really know what they were going to do. >> Yeah, exactly, so did you kind of get them ready to do that? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Now I think, I think that was a really good example of being able to see kind of a good way and a bad way to do it. >> Mm-hm. >> And it's certainly is different with procedures. >> Yeah, it's challenging, yeah.
