That was a very interesting discussion about after action review. And that makes me wonder, we need to do our after action review as well because we're in module two now. I'm sure we have had a lot of moments where we've had arguments, we've had disagreements, and we have pondered over things quite a bit, and I'm sure, that's true for me at least. So I would like to hear from you, that if we conduct our own after action review, how does that sound like? >> So you're calling a time out and asking us to step back. >> Absolutely. >> Okay, I think we can do that. >> Well, you know, it's interesting because it's almost, now that I'm choosing to do time out, it's like stepping out of this, going to a balcony, watching ourselves coming back, being a part of it. That, From what you were saying, is about how I'm impacting you and how your responses are impacting each other. And this interaction that's taking place amongst the four of us, this is the second module, we've been at it from module one. It is really making me ask of myself a lot of questions. A lot of questions, that also tell me that I may not be thinking about some of the things that you're thinking about. That's what I'm experiencing as I practice this. >> One of the things, and Allen, you've mentioned this, that we do in after action reviews is just to say are we meeting our goal? >> And being clear about our goals. >> Being clear. And so one of our goals is to do the filming of these MOOC and the different modules. And certainly, we seem to be accomplishing that. >> As an instructional designer, I find myself consistently thinking about the learner. So I'm always thinking about what are the learning goals of this particular module. What are the takeaways for the learner? Do they have sufficient opportunities to practice and apply what they've just learned? So I see myself questioning whether we've accomplished this, as you said goals, for each of these modules. >> I like that idea of practicing. In a sense, it seems to me, we're experimenting. We're not worried about it being perfect, but we want to experiment and find ways to do this effectively. So experimentation is an aspect that I think we're doing, it's a part of our, our MOOC activity. >> That's right. We were talking about the zone of imperfection that we will stay in, as we try and build spontaneity in conversation. Because what would have been simple is Allen, if you just spoke, and each one of us spoke, and there's a PowerPoint behind, but what if we were to truly, genuinely have a conversation? About right now, we are having a conversation about the conversation we just had. >> One of the things that I find is a little bit difficult about this process is that we don't have immediate feedback from the viewer, the learner, our audience, you. And so it's hard to know, are we, are we coming across, not coming across? The positive part about that is that we're trying to put ourselves in the place of the person watching us. And so that we're doing more reflection than we might otherwise do, to think about how we're coming across, are we communicating well or not? >> I think that's an important point. We do want to know what you think. But I am just recognizing in the after action review, as we talk about doing this, that I have certain assessments, or beliefs, sort of conclusions I draw. But if I stop and listen to my teammates, they're not exactly the same. So I do have an opportunity to learn from you as opposed to just assume, well, you experienced the exact same thing I just did, so you must think exactly the same thing that I think about it. So well, it's curious to know what you, the learner, think, and we'll find out that later. But just creating that space where I can hear your perspectives cause me to sort of think that didn't occur to me. And that enriches the experience. >> Absolutely, if I was to watch us from a screen and the learner is at the table, which is you. And that was a deliberate call the four of us took, that the learner would be at the table. It's not about us, talking at or talking down, or just downloading information, because you can get download information anywhere. But to be engaged in this process, to feel it and to ask the questions so that you can apply tomorrow, puts tremendous amount of responsibility on the four of us. And we're constantly aware of it, even though we're checking our notes, did we touch the points? And I find that, that it needs you to be mindful, even when you're trying to engage in a spontaneous conversation. >> Absolutely, that reminds me of my favorite quote from Mark Twain, though I don't remember it exactly, it takes two to three weeks to even give an impromptu speech well, right? >> [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] Again, you're absolutely right. For me, it's like a mirroring journey. As I went through module one, we keep talking about frames and reframes. I caught myself questioning some of my frames, trying to reframe it, and trying to see how that just looks like. So it's been a learning journey for me as well. >> I'm struck also by the fact, and I think Dana mentioned this earlier, we don't take the time to do after action reviews. Why? Because we're on schedule, we're on budget, we want to shortcut the process. And of course, we cause ourselves great difficulty. I'm always struck by the fact that, well, you can pay me now or you can pay me later. And taking the time to sort out some of these problems or issues or differences is valuable time spent because it keeps us aligned and moving forward in a shared understanding of what's happening. Otherwise, we get the implementation or later on in project teams and in teams. And people have done different things and then we've got that meeting that is the fight on our hand because no one is really on the same page. So this chance of sort of creating that space, carving that space out. It's not that you have free time, or spare time, but you need to take this time to be effective. >> That's a great example. I've had that kind of thing happen a number of times where I've been asked to come into an organization and help them with a specific problem. And I've said, I want to do a little diagnostic work first to try to identify what's going on and they've said, like you've pointed out, we don't have time for that. We're not- >> Or how much will that cost. >> We're not paying you for that. And so then, I end up starting something or refusing to start something. But if I start it without having enough data or information to know where the problems or issues really are. >> So if we were watching ourselves, what would we say were our norms for the first module, or til now, what do you think? >> I think as a team, we really worked on and sometimes struggled towards maintaining the balance between spontaneity, having an engaging discussion and yet making sure that we meet the learning goals of that particular module. For me that was something that I thought became a group number, we're constantly trying to balance both aspects of that. >> I think we have a norm of supporting each other and rescuing each other if one of us goes off track, which I think is a helpful norm. [LAUGH] >> And I think we've been trying to give concrete examples and illustrations and cases, in our actors in their scenarios, so that we're not just talking about general values or general concepts, but trying to illustrate them with specifics and details. I remember the term we've used, the assumptions that fly around the room. We're trying to get the conversation not about assumptions and vague concepts, but detailed specific behaviors and activities and events, so that we can try to change those things. >> One of the things that I've been very cognizant of is, when we are not on camera, we go back to what we did on camera. And we look at, but I did not mention this, I completely forgot that. And the next time, what you're saying, Allen, Rowen, Dana, can you please remember to say this point. So I noticed that, there isn't sort of a turf war going on between us and who's saying what and what's going on. I don't find that, I find myself to be comfortable and know that the learning goal is being met and I find I'm okay with that. >> We should ask you if the learning goal is being met. >> Yes, yes. >> [LAUGH] We think, we hope so. >> Yes.