ZOLLO: I would like to welcome today my dear friend and esteemed colleague Celia Moore. Celia is one of our experts on organizational behavior and business ethics. And from that perspective, I would love to hear your own view on what a sustainable organization might look like or should look like. MOORE: Thank you for having me. The literature on sustainability and the literature on business ethics has always been somewhat separate and done by different groups of people, but they obviously have a lot in common in that they are both trying to both describe the world as it is and describe the world as it ought to be. So, sustainability has largely been focused on the organization of the firm level. Business ethics often takes the view at the individual level, but both of them are trying to describe how we can get to a better place. So from a business ethics perspective, I think a sustainable enterprise needs to deal with all of its stakeholders in respectful, appropriate, honorable, and with a long-term view. That means that all the stakeholders involved in the organization need to be treated with respect. That includes employees, customers, clients, governments, regulators, and the media as well. ZOLLO: Celia, a tougher question here, and question that we're all really struggling as academics as well as practitioners, business managers. So, given what you said about what a sustainable organization should look like, how do we think about transition towards realizing the sustainable organization, and what does it take to become one? How do we think about it from a conceptual standpoint, but also maybe from a more practice oriented standpoint? MOORE: So, I have to say that my interest in business ethics stems from an ongoing tension I have between my inner cynic and my inner idealist. So my inner cynic worries that there are always temptations to function in ways that meet our own short-term self interest. That's true for individuals, that's true for organizations. And that's a temptation that is very hard to overcome. That's why I think that over the long term, sustainability will not be realized until governments are involved both on an national and international level, because it takes bodies that are focused on the common good in order to create the incentives necessary to force people to focus on their own long-term best interest. That said, the inner idealist in me sees lots of examples of both entrepreneurs and firms that really, truly want to build their enterprises around the sustainable long term. One thing that I know for sure after studying ethics for so long is that people really, truly want to be good. They want to think of themselves as good people, they want to think of themselves as ethical. That's really hard to do if you're behaving in your business in a way that only functions in terms of your own short-term self-interest. That gives my inner cynic a little bit of hope. ZOLLO: Well, thank you. That’s a great way to conclude with a ray of hope that we will be able to see that the positive side inside of all of us emerges bit by bit. Thank you so much, Celia. MOORE: Thank you. ZOLLO: For your input.