Introduction to Human Rights Week 3: The sources of Human Rights VIII. Interview with Abdoulaye Soma Professor Soma, thank you for accepting our invitation. My first question concerns the African Charter on Human and Peoples' Rights of 27 June 1981 compared to the other Human Rights instruments as they exist at the universal or regional stages. Could you briefly tell us what the originality of the Charter is? Thank you very much, Professor Hottelier. I would also like to say how happy and grateful I am to cooperate with you at a scientific level. Regarding the originality of the African Charter on Human and Peoples' Rights, I would say that it has a double originality: a formal and a material one. The formal originality concerns the geographical scope of application of the African Charter on Human and Peoples' Rights. From this point of view, we can say that the Charter has a holistic application. Indeed, the Charter is applied on the whole African continent. When we have a look at the different Human Rights instruments, the Charter is the only one which covers a whole continent, with the exception of South Sudan. The material originality concerns the content, that is to say the rights guaranteed by the Charter. From this point of view, the first material originality of the Charter concerns its establishment of the Peoples' Rights. The Charter is the reference standard in terms of the protection of Peoples' Rights in international Human Rights law. We therefore find in the Charter some rights which are guaranteed to the people as collective bodies. The rights guaranteed in article 20 as well as in the following articles of the Charter especially concern Peoples' Right to existence, Peoples' Right to self-determination, Peoples' Right to development, the right to an environment, the right to peace. The second originality of the Charter is the concretization of duties. From this point of view, the Charter has a double pattern. First, there is a balance between the duties of the State and the duties of the individual. The State has, for example, the duty to take care of the presence of a national environment favorable to Human Rights implementation. Correlatively to the duties of the State, there are the duties of the individual. Article 29 mentions for example that the individual has duties towards the community and towards his/her family. The Charter tries therefore to balance rights and duties as well as individual and collective rights. Thank you, Professor Soma, for these answers. As you just mentioned, one of the originalities of the African Charter is the recognition and the concretization of Peoples' Rights. This originality is precisely subjected to a few criticisms in relation with the practicability of these solidarity rights. Indeed, some individuals think that Peoples' Rights are not precise enough to be applied and implemented. What do you think about that? I have two things to say about the criticisms regarding the difficulty to apply Peoples' Rights. I think that the criticism can be understood but that it is not really justified. First, the criticism can be understood because the collective right - Peoples' Rights - raises huge political issues. if we consider each of the collective rights - each of Peoples' Rights - then its implementation raises political discussions. Let us for example consider the right to self-determination. This right implies a secession, a scission. It calls into question the sovereignty or the territorial integrity of a State or of a political society. Contesting will always exist because States want to preserve their sovereignty. States also always want to preserve their territorial integrity. The same is true for the right to development. The right to development actually leads to act in favour of categories of people. This right also leads to issues. Especially to international cooperation issues. Indeed, the right to development can be interpreted in the cooperative relations between rich and poor countries. International frictions, international uncertainties or at least some issues can appear. But these are political problems. This is why each Human Right raises political issues regarding its implementation. These political issues make this criticism understandable. Nevertheless, from a legal point of view, the criticism is not justified. Indeed, these Peoples' Rights have been guaranteed in the Charter. The body which takes care of the technical and jurisdictional implementation has already made clear that there is no guaranteed right which appears in the Charter that cannot be an implementation subject. This implies a jurisdictional implementation. In the practice of the African bodies of these collective rights, there is a praetorian protection and jurisprudential activity of the protection of these rights. Here I am going to give two examples to show that these rights are capable of a jurisdictional implementation. The first example concerns the Ogoni People against Nigeria. The Ogoni People live in the Niger Delta which is an oil-bearing zone. The Ogoni People claimed several rights to the Nigerian State which was implicated in the exploitation of oil with many foreign companies. The exploitation of oil involved some of the collective rights, some of Peoples' Rights such as the right to a healthy environment, the right to food, the right for the Ogoni People to develop. The Ogoni People seized the African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights in order to discuss these legal issues with the Nigerian State. In the decision from 2001 concerning the Ogoni People affair, the Commission recognized the quality of people to this group that we call Ogoni and it also recognized the protection of rights that the people claimed. They were, for example, claiming for the right to development and the right to a healthy environment. The Commission even convicted Nigeria for the violation of the rights of the Ogoni People. Here is a concrete case of implementation. The second example concerns the Katangais People. The decision was issued by the African Commission in 1996. The Katangais People live in a region of the Democratic Republic of Congo called Katanga. This is a very rich region. Since the first days of independence, this people claimed for their autonomy and for their sovereignty towards the Zaïrois State. The leaders of the Katangais People brought an action against the African Commission on Human Rights in order to claim for the right for the people to self-determination. This right is guaranteed by the African Charter. They claimed for an autonomy, a secession, towards the Zaïrois People. The Commission debated this case and decided to restore the sovereignty of the Zaïrois People in 1996 by saying that the right to self-determination had to be recognised to the Katangais People. It was also said that the sovereignty of Zaïre should also be recognised. The right for People to self-determination has to be compatible with the sovereignty of the State and with the African Charter of Human and Peoples' Rights. This is how the rights can have a precise content, can have an impact and can be debated in law.