We're delighted to have Dan Smyer Yu here with us today from China, from Western China, from Yunnan a very remote area. An area that is very rich though in indigenous peoples and minority peoples. He teaches at Yunnan Minzu University which is a People's University, 75 percent of which are from the indigenous groups of China. He has also been a founding director of a center there called the Center for Trans-Himalaya Studies. This is his specialty for many years indeed decades. We're delighted to begin to explore this field of studies but especially to give us a sense of the land, and how the land is imprinted with ancient understandings of the Spirit presence of sacred places and so on. Dan welcome to our conversation. Thank you very much for inviting me to Yale campus, it's an inspirational place. Well we're delighted with all of these resources, and hikes you've had in remote places and pilgrimage experiences. But let's begin, shall we with your own background of-. Sure. How you got into this? Give us a little feel for that. Sure thing. Yeah I came from China current position where the UNA means or university and center for a Trans-Himalaya studies. But actually all my training rather took place in California at University of California Davis campus. My specialization started with Sino-Tibetan Buddhist interactions, not so much with the religion ecology that came later because of you. Let me explain to you my short journey here. Initially, my research was the question why Han Chinese so interested in Tibetan Buddhism because-. Stop a minute. Han Chinese means the main. Main. Main Chinese. Not the minority. Exactly. Because China has had a long Buddhist culture. Yes indeed. Long time. Yes. Monasteries everywhere why would they go to the highlands? Yes. To embrace Tibetan Buddhism it's growing so rapidly. In Tibetan Buddhism is it becoming a part of a Chinese or religious landscape now. With this question I went to Tibet, and I focused on how Han Chinese learning to then Buddhism. One particular thing really stood out. The way they did their pilgrimage it's so different from how native Tibetans do their pilgrimage. The Chinese pilgrimage and the Tibetan pilgrimage were quite different. Very different. Locating this by the way Tibet is on a very high plateau, the regions around it have Tibetan people, etc, on and so on. But we're talking about a remote area historically. Yes. Then Han Chinese focuses on their Tibet and teachers, and monasteries, architecture charismatic person's, religious leaders. The native Tibetans rather focus on sacred Lakes, mountains, they have annual calendar to circumambulate these mountains, and lakes, and rather than instead of there and lamas. They're really got me interested into religion ecology, and I was reading your editors series already, and very inspirational, I want to connect to religion with ecology. That took place after I published my first book, The Spread of Tibetan Buddhism in China. But I'll already wrote couple of chapters in it about that connection of religion and ecology. Right. We share this sense don't we Dan, of religion is more than institutional structures even more than as you've just said the guru, or the Lama, the teacher, the priest, and so on. Religion in this sense and this has been true around the world has landscape memory imprinting life spirit and so on and that's what in part got you excited about the world. Exactly. I had a theological background at graduate theological Uni in Berkeley. Yes. I was so doctrinally trained and theologically trained and only look at the cannons and texts. But when I became an anthropologist I look at how religion is lived and practiced. In the scholarly world we talk about lived religion. The lived religion is very different from the doctrinally defined religion. Yes. Through that lens I really see lived religion is so connected to land. What I mean by land is the Earth itself, and Tibet is a unique place. Now proportionately, the ratio between the size of a land and people is so vast. Fewer people huge amount of land. So the land dominates, or the earth dominates human consciousness in that part of the world. Yes. We're dwarfed by the mountains. Yes. Water these beautiful lakes and things-. Exactly. that you mentioned. This is comes up how I connect to religion ecology. Starting with the Tibetan lamas their poems about their landscape. The way they write history is also very poetic connected with the landscape itself. Then I also pay attention to non-Tibetan pilgrims when they did their pilgrimage in Tibet. When they came back from Tibet they also use poetic language to describe their experience, landed experience in Tibet. They're really shows that Tibetan landscape is speaking to us. This is a wonderful word, isn't it? Landscape is speaking to us. Yes. You've done a film on this too. Tell us how it is speaking to us as you see it there. See, I have the social science background. We always think humans animals are the ones with the sentience and consciousness. We ignore the fact that land itself also speak to us through its vegetations, through its topography, and many times in my research in a sacred places or a particular village, I found It's rather than landscape chose the human community, humans to settle there. Have a sense of in haven, safe place, sacred around, and with abundance of water, so this is how I see. Now in the Tibet case I went a little further, I didn't want a subjectively put my meanings into the landscape, and I found native Tibetans mountain culture really shows the land is animated, land has soul, land is sentient, land interacts with humankind. In their practice a mountain culture, and they have mountain deities. These deities are named with their ancestral names with their kings in the past, so the land the mountains is very much alive, the land stores human history, and the land is home of all the gods and goddesses. These gods and goddesses are very different from let's say more theoretical religions, and bit a detached from humankind, the separation divinity and humanity. These gods and goddesses are among humans, and they are being looked upon as sentient beings except they don't have the human forms. They may be take the mountain forms in most of times, they don't have any forms, and yet they are present among humankind. This is where earth and humans start talking to each other, and also these gods and goddesses in charge of water, meteorological factors, the rains and storms, and so humans develop a relationship with them, negotiate with them because they have supernatural power, and yet humans only have the human powers. But religion comes in allows humans to practice Transcendental power, spiritual power to negotiate their needs with the gods and goddesses. This is how this Earth becomes alive with humankind. Now you've said beautifully the Earth is sentient meaning there's a sense of consciousness, there's a sense of presence their spirit presences which we know is true for indigenous peoples all over the world. In fact we can almost say that actually religious and spiritual sensibilities of humans or 200,000 year-old species and and older is by in large charged with this sense of the aliveness of the earth and of special places. The monotheistic religions or 5,000 years old at most the world religions. But this very ancient sensibility that the Tibetans and others have kept alive, and this negotiation as you say between humans and the landscape especially mountains and waters, the sacred protection and the fountain of life waters, can you tell us a little more about this dialogue between the mountains and the waters in these regions. Mountain culture has its own social materiality, it's not intangible, it's not something so invisible we can only guess. This materiality has to do with the religious rituals, for instance about hails, how to prevent hails during the hail storms. Then the community I work with in Tibet they specialize in where the control techniques. I'll give you example. During harvest season in the midsummer, early summer they grow wheat, and Highland barley, and before the harvest, they send out these Yogis to the high points the mountains to read the clouds. Once they detect a certain cloud's harmful, they are bringing hails, storms, and they will inform other Yogis to perform rituals. But there's always a leading Yogi and they have bows and arrows. Then they design these arrows in a very interesting way. They put a type of plant into it that this plant has pricks. When the storm comes they shoot into the clouds and symbolically-. Yeah. To defeat these harmful deities behind the clouds so they would retreat. This is how the dialogue but this sounds like a violent, but to me it's very scientific way of looking at the weather but through villages language. Because in the scientific world we also shoot rockets into the clouds to make rains or to prevent rains. But they did it same they have done saying for a long time but in the symbolic way. But the way they do it is to exercise the power of their consciousness to have dialogue with incoming deities and say you retreat, or you don't retreat and
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you feel uncomfortable. Now this is like a child's play but that's a cultural reality there and this is how I learn that their dialogue with gods and goddesses. In other dimension is how world religion comes into play Buddhism. When are these techniques fail, they always invoke Buddha dharma. Because according to the Buddha's teaching the principle is that these supernatural gods are equal to humankind because they are sentient beings and everyone is sentient beings. Based on that foundation and the humans say you're equal to us, and then you are already converted to Buddhism longtime ago by Padmasambhava. So then if you do harmful things, then you are betraying Buddhist principals. That kind of a ritual they exercise and the particular texts and designated to their negotiation with the gods and goddesses. This is clearly very syncretic, very culturally rich and complex historically diverse because of the Bon tradition, this pilgrimage tradition. Yes. Of the ancient peoples of this area along with Tibet Buddhism which came later and so on. But when you say Buddha Dharma meaning Buddha law, are you reflecting a sense of Buddha nature in all things that sense of Mahayana Buddhism that the whole world has a sense of a presence if you will which goes into China and Japan. There's two traditions coming together. Yeah. Great deal of history and so on. I just wanted to draw you out about Buddha Dharma and the Buddha nature. Yeah. Every sentient being has Buddha nature that's the basic of Buddhists belief system. Let's say these gods is being regarded as sentient beings, and so therefore it is assumed there's a spiritual logic- Right. That they have Buddha nature just like humankind, like a cat, dogs. Based on this principle then everybody is a Buddhist, and then we can establish a meaningful dialogue. Everyone has a Buddha nature. Yeah. Of potential enlightenment. That's right. Yeah. So everyone is being framed in the moral and spiritual framework, so based on that and then we started having dialogue. Yes. Then second thing you earlier you mentioned about Bon and native belief system. I think last night we were debating about Buddhism, is it really ecologically friendly religion? Overall I say yes, but on the other hand I also see the pre-Buddhist religious practice in Tibet perhaps as a more friendly with earth than Buddhism itself. Because of the connection and their animated way of looking at the Earth really surpasses how Buddhism only focuses on personal enlightenment, the human or the sentient being and instead of like put the intimate connection putting humans and the Earth at the first place. The condition is really about certain moral and spiritual transcendence, and then based on this framework and humans talked to Gods etc. But the pre-Buddhist religion put humans and gods in direct contact on the daily basis, and humans have developed a sustainable way of being with the Earth. Once Tibet was transformed into Buddhism that came into Buddhism, and yet it being said on the margin but still exist. Because according to Buddhist principle, humans especially Buddhists are not supposed to worship these earth dieties, they are supposed to revere the Buddha, the Bodhisattva. Yet this dimension of a folk religious practice in Tibet still very much in Buddhism itself. Yes. In my second book "Mindscaping the Landscape of Tibet" I talked about this extensively offered my critique of Buddhism in relation to ecology. I tend to emphasize the indigenous cosmovision the phrase you and John used extensively. I think that's very valid for our understanding of human's relationship with the Earth rather than through the lenses of the world religions to start with, and world religions have impact on people's conception of the earth. But I would call it is a reconceptualization of the relationship rather than the initial original spontaneous relationship with the earth. Well I think that's a wonderful point in the sense that what we're trying to do as you know well and you've been such a good partner with this project is to retrieve, re-evaluate, and re construct these so-called World Religions in light you've just been speaking about. I mean we know there's cannons, and there's orthodoxy, and there's texts and tradition, and so on. But throughout this in all of the traditions very diversified but there is a sense that nature is part of who we are as humans. Maybe sometimes implicitly more than explicitely and so on. But one of the things coming back to Buddhism in my area in China and Japan would show this sense I think of the Buddha nature and all things especially zen, and the Zen gardens, and so on that you can be enlightened looking at the rocks and stones in these gardens
