Welcome once more to Camera Never Lies. This is Week 6, and it's a privilege to be joined by the Uruguayan photojournalist, Julio Etchart, a photojournalist from Uruguay. And who's presently preparing an exhibition in collaboration with Amnesty International. Or what is identified as if you like, the other 9/11. and Chile's experience in the 1980s under Pinochet and thereafter. So, thanks very much for making time to speak to us today. Now, we've got some of your photographs here, and if you could talk us through the photographs, the events. Perhaps give some of the, the, the students out in Coursera land a little more background on, on what's going on. And, and I will often try to fill in on you know, what Latin American history I can piece together from, from that time. Okay. >> Sure. >> So, let's talk about this, this first image which is quite striking, especially in terms of the, the placard. >> That's fine, that was during the referendum. >> Mm-hm. >> In 1988. So, those are the long, at the end of a very long struggle. >> Mm-hm. >> you know, against Pinochet by grassroots organizations and, and popular movement in Chile. he was the last dictator remanded in, in South America. >> Yap. >> And, and, and that was a mother and child during a No campaign referendum rally. And they just you know blemished the poster a bit, not to the devil, because it was aye or nay. >> Okay. >> You like me, you don't. So, people have the right to say no, and that's what they did. And they chuck him out, what not straight away. >> No. >> because you, you know, he stayed as a, as a live senator and still run the country for another year. >> Mm-hm. >> But in 1999, they have you know, free elections for the first time in, in over 18 years. >> in, in, indeed. >> indeed. Now, just in terms of the composition of the photograph you have. it sounds strange to say, but innocent looking couple if you like, the mother and child. >> That's right. >> As we said a little bit earlier, not the archetypal protester of what might be sticking in peoples' minds. >> Sure. >> but the augmentation shall we say of Pinochet image as the devil, no more of the devil. I mean, the first thing is that comes to mind here is the idea that protest is a cultural and societal thing, and it's not to a specific group. And this brings it out I think very well in that regard. >> Mm-hm, Mm-hm. >> and also, the point I made earlier is that within Greenham Common, and the protests we had in Britain during the 1980s against the placing of nuclear weapons in Britain. Again, it's not minority groups. It's representing from all of society, who are saying, we do not want these on our soil. >> That's right. You know, and I was there in, in 1982 and 1983 to I went to Greenham Common and photographed the the the camps. And, and the, I had the same feeling you know, women and children you know, saying no, and it's, it's a very powerful image really. >> Yeah, indeed. Let's move on, because I found, I mean this image I think is, is terrific in in many respects. but just in terms of the, the linking between you know, we want libert, li, li, liberty. >> That's right. >> But also the just you know, the brightly colored party balloons. >> That's right. >> [CROSSTALK] suddenly there is something we can celebrate. >> That's right, the resistance and, and they they adopted those colors and a rainbow. >> Yeah. >> It's a logo for the No campaign, because they want to show something cheerful. >> Mm-hm. >> And, and in a way of course, there's a lot of you know, things [INAUDIBLE] today from, from, from our past. But let's move on and try to just I don't know what's going to happen after we check him out. >> Mm-hm. >> We're still going to fight against ourselves to, to find the right kind of leader, but at least it's going to be a different kind of environment. So, libertad first and then you know, the rest. >> But in terms of building a story as a, as a photojournalist you know, the the point you made that these photographs are being used by many of the British broadsheet newspapers. The Guardian, The Telegraph, et cetera, this is emblematic of a number of things. We talk about blue skies, we talk about freedom, et cetera. So, in conveying this spirit of the time, when you took this photograph, was it just happen chance or is it something that you'd seen thinking that helps build in the atmosphere of, of. A bit of both obviously, it's happening and there are balloons [LAUGH] very easily. But you know, I went for them, and I always carry a couple of cameras with a long lens and then a wide angle on the other one. And I went for it straight away, because it was such a you know, a powerful image. And but I also was trained as a photojournalist, but I also did film making and 60 mil documentary in those days with a pile of [UNKNOWN] and a [UNKNOWN]. And I used to [UNKNOWN] to cut film and spliced it in the, in the old fashion way. >> Mm-hm. >> so, I always been you know, thinking in both ways, cinematically as well. So, you're thinking of cuttings and feelings, and things like that. Which are you know, I still use when, when I shoot [UNKNOWN]. >> [UNKNOWN], I appreciate that, and of course that little flexibility of modern technology is the fact that your film camera, so, to speak, is also use stills camera. >> That's right. >> Now, to, talk us through this [CROSSTALK]. >> That's Allende. That's Salvador Allende, the, the late president of Chile who was killed. Democratically elected, and and violently rooted out in September 73 when they bombed the presidential palace. >> Yap. >> and sh, still an icon in Chile up to these days. But that was you know, during the referendum campaign in, in, in, in the, in 1998. >> And just in terms of the image in the poster, I mean, many people are familiar with the classic image of Che Guevara. I mean, does that have same resonance for the day in Chile as well? >> I say, ye, yes. It's, it's an icon, in, in like, like Che Guevara you know, it's very much in the, in the heart of the Chileans. Because he's a guy who honest and, and he worked very hard to, to try to bring social justice to the country. >> Yap. >> And he was killed in a, or died in a very kind of severe way. >> [CROSSTALK] Well, I mean in terms of a, a, a nihilistic interpretation of, of democracy, you know, a coup, which kills the leader, is, is, again [CROSSTALK] is emblematic in that regard. And again, the protest shots you took. >> Big crowds during the referendum campaign. >> Okay. But very proudly with the Chilean flag. >> That's right. >> But as we pointed out a little earlier, you can just see that the, the rainbow flag. >> [CROSSTALK] The rainbow, that's a a good news symbol. >> A common theme if you look at movement and change. The idea of the, of coming together under the rainbow or rainbow alliances. >> The rainbow alliance. the Forbidden Rainbow is the title of my first photographic book, actually. >> Uh-huh, okay. >> as youyou know that. But it was to do with the rainbow alliance. It was published in 1992 by Serpent's tail. >> Okay. >> And, and it was about that. But it's important here because we have that along with the Chilean flag. The Chilean flag was very much misused by Pinochet and the officialism, obviously, officialdom. so, and because obviously, we are the patriots here, and we, we are Chile. >> Oh. >> So, that's it. No we have to the right to have our own flag, use our own flag as well, but we have this other flag, other emblem which is goes you know. >> We, we, we've. >> Change in. >> Talked earlier in the coarse about ownership of patriotism around flags and the imagery of flags. So, I think that's, that's, that let's, that's a very interesting take on that one. I'll do a little bit more prep on that when I, I support this, that in, in Coursera, I think that's a good point to follow up on. Okay? And again, the, the classic. >> No and the, the fist and defiance. >> That's right. >> and we've had enough of you guys, and you know, say no, and we, we want a new you know, future we deserve. And you know, future. >> As we talked about earlier, I mean, this is 20 years on from the Mexico City Olympic protests. >> Hm, that's right. >> So, that symbol has now becoming bated [CROSSTALK] as one of protest [CROSSTALK]. So, again it's a repetition of imagery which is significant. We are doing this because [CROSSTALK] we want to stand up for our rights. Good, and again, you mentioned about the no campaign that's even more graphic, I mean literally. particularly, in terms of just picking it out you know, focusing down and, and clearly picking narrow aperture to just getting a hand in focus. >> [CROSSTALK] you know, I was very much focusing on details. the way you build up a picture-story in photojournalism with still images. >> Mm-hm. >> It's very much the same thing that use the same tools, the same technique, that when you're making a, a, a movie, you know, a documentary. >> Yeah. >> You know, you need all your kind of different elements. You know, your establishing shots, your details, your portraits, your close ups, your relations, so, it, it works either way. >> So, when you are you know, are, photographing and filming, and putting a portfolio together, you are looking for the variety of experience so to speak of the time. >> That's right. >> But also to make sure that you know, in terms of reportage that what you're capturing is authentic. >> That's right. And you have to feel out the pace, you want a good you know, range of images you know, that can be used as a picture story. And and now it's a slideshow in multimedia. >> Yap. >> and closeups and leaders are very important. >> Yap, indeed. Okay, that's great. Let's just move on here. And again, this is something that we, we both talked about a little earlier. >> That's right. >> This is the [CROSSTALK] the ten years on. That's right. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay. Now, these, this is a photograph and you pointed out from a Spanish news paper. >> El Pais news paper, yeah. >> And, and [CROSSTALK] these are photographs of some of the disappeared. >> Those in Chile who were an inconvenience, shall we say, to the Pinochet regime. And as with many other dictatorships, disappeared into the night, not to be seen again. >> That's right. >> Now, I didn't initially pick this up until you put it out, but just in the background, that's the socialist worker. >> That's right. >> That's the British pu, radical newspaper. >> This is, this is in London outside the House of Lords. >> Yeah. >> And demanding that he be you know, kept in under arrest. Under house arrest whatever. When he came to medical treatment at the London clinic. And he was arrested by Jack Straw at the time and then later to be released. Later, a lot of misunderstandings, it's another story. But, I mean, at that time I said well a lot of joy within the Chilean ex-pat community. And and British people who were in solidarity with them. >> So, this story might be in and around the beginning of the democracy movement in Chile, but has wider records and continues in that regard. >> I'm sure it did, yes, yes. >> Yeah. >> Just in terms of this shot can you just date this for us again? This is again 1980s. >> Yeah, that 1984, and that was International Women's Day. >> Right. >> And there was that, that protest was the turning point in the whole kind of struggle against Pinochet. Because there were, no rally's or protest allowed at all. >> hm. >> political trade unions and stations were all kind of bound. So, they just a very brave group of women. >> hm. >> They got there in Central Santiago, Chile's capital. They said we're all going to celebrate International Women's Day, it's our day. >> Mm-mm. >> But of course, there were other things on the agenda. And most of them were relatives or, people that had disappeared or were imprisoned. so, that was the main demand. And of course you know, they were ruthlessly repressed, and it came with tear gas and, and water cannon. And you can see it from the next image. And what's the telling theme, but because we, we keep seeing things, you know, Taksim Square just happend in, in, in in, in Turkey. >> That's right. >> And a very peaceful protest being repressed [INAUDIBLE] violently and. >> But this is tear gas against, what your mother, your aunt, your. >> Your granny. >> Your granny, yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> So, just talk us through a little bit about the composition and, and the power of the image as you don't. >> yeah. >> First thing, I want to ask is, is something we touched on earlier in the course. you shot with black and white stock here. This is used 35 millimeter black and white flim. >> Yeah. >> The choice between color black and white as a, a photojournalist, what dictates that? >> That well, at that time was I carried you know two or three cameras, three camera bodies usually, but you know, black and White in color all the time because I was using stuff from magazines. >> Yap. >> So had color chrome film. >> Mm-hm. >> and Black and White. But the light in everything was hit with this Black and White, even in magazines wants to run it. It's a black and white shot. >> Got you. >> and also to capture, the, the, the, the gas coming. And of course I was you know, very kind of put that to myself [UNKNOWN] slow with a hanky and all that. But still you know, you can only hold it for so long. I mean, it must have been probably five minutes, and then you're out of it. And then you have to go and have a bit of lemon and, and bit of water just to get back into the action. and yeah, the smoke was coming, so, I've gotta, I think about four or five frames really. and I thought that was the most powerful, because some of them, the composition. >> [CROSSTALK] Because we have the central figures walking away, but. >> That's right. >> It's discomfort, it's cry. It's almost as if. >> That's right. That face is very telling. >> Yeah. >> Both the faces are telling. >> And I picked up the. >> That, see that's a granny for Christ's sake you know, you know [CROSSTALK]. >> This is a regime that's going to take out your gran. >> Yes. >> [LAUGH] I'm, that's not trivializing [CROSSTALK]. >> Serious. >> I think it, it coming. >> No, no. it's just, you know. >> Picking the image out, is picking the story. >> Which is plain. What have I guardian from you know, double spread, and breaks the whole, the whole set in those days. And, and I think, in all modesty, it was my, my pictures, and that of other colleagues who were around... >> Mm-hm. >> Went round the, roun, around the world bought the kind of, the whole tension back. >> I will try to cross reference this against the digital archives we have so that we can show this to some of the students about the photograph in situ in the newspapers. So, now, the power for the images you said the faces et cetera, but also the composition. I mean, you black and white picking up the, the tear gas. And there is a certain intensity that's, that's coming through here. This is you know, not a tri, a trivial event. Someone has put in cani, a number of canisters against peaceful protesters. >> Yeah, yeah. >> The last I wanted to ask is just in terms of the woman moving in there. >> You know, this gives an idea there's at least some support. Not everyone is just running away. This is a woman who looks like she's going in and giving support to one of the women in the background. >> That's right, yeah. going to help some of the ones that fell you know, the other side of the there was a fence there in the park, in the central park in central Santiago. And and and then you go, they all got a Citroen Chevette, you know. There's a kind of reference in telling you, you know. >> Indeed So, the point being that although this is a distressing image, it's also showing a certain degree of solidarity. >> Definately. >> Okay. Let's move on to the next image because you can see. >> And then the next one really. And that was after the regrouping, that was after the first shots. And, and these are shots and then water cannons so, you know, they always combine both which is for total effect. >> A large group of women who are protesting, but they're drenched. >> They're drenched with water. >> Not because of rain or not because they [CROSSTALK] >> Was very dry day. >> Yeah, high pressure hoses put on them. >> That's right. >> Not only are you documenting women identifying themselves as, as a group and protesting against the government, and expressing their independence on an international day. But also, it's a, it's a docu, it, it, it's a documentary, if you like, of the tactics of the Chilean police to suppress their own population. >> That's right. >> And the fact is, the wives and mothers. >> Mm-hm. >> Then, gives you also an idea of the extent at which protest was unacceptable to that particular regime. >> Sure. >> Yeah, excellent, let's go through here. Now, I like this one. Just, could you give us a little bit more about the context of this? >> She's um,part of a group of women who were protesting outside the the, the, the court. they were trying to get some kind of >> hm. >> any kind of information really. So, their [UNKNOWN] went through with the about disappeared partners and children. >> So, you said this is the wife of [CROSSTALK]. >> The wife of a disappeared former trade unionist. who, you know, found that he, he, he died. And they found the, the, they found the, the, they found his body in a common graveyard a few years later, after the return to democracy. When things have begun to you know, open up a bit more. But there was a very, I mean she was surrounded by, by riot police and you can see she was totally defiant. I just want to know where my husband is. I'm a mother. You know. Don't you have a mother? Don't you have any? And she was saying to, to the, to the to the riot police. Don't you have a mother? Don't you have any dignity? >> She's asking for answers. >> Exactly. >> And in this context also. And again, it's the moment. >> Mm-hm. >> Your authority figures are in sharp relief. >> Mm-hm. >> The woman is in motion. The image is slightly blurred. But she is the population, tell us what's happening. >> That's right. >> The rest are looking away. They're disinterested. >> Mm-hm. Mm-hm. >> So, again, that gives a figurative representation between the populace and the actual state. >> Mm-hm. >> Alright. Let's go through the, this is a more classic sort of protest, where is my husband? >> Mm-hm. Similar one to this one. >> Yeah. >> And freedom. Well, she knows it's, that's freedom, libertad. So, he knows he's ways detained in, in a clandestine detention center. But she found out where it is. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, she want freedom for her husband. >>Uh, here. Talk us through. This is >> This is the, the late Hortensia Bussi Allende, Salvador Allende's wife, who was in, went to exile. He died on the day of the coup. She went in, she was allowed to go into exile in Mexico. >> Mm-hm. >> Where she spent all the time until she was allowed to, she was unbound and allowed to come back on the a few days before the referendum in 1988. So, she was in exile for 15 years, but she was very, very busy in those years. She went around the world, you know >> And for this particular photograph. >> [CROSSTALK] attention to the cause. >> Although, although it is on, on one level a portrait full of character. >> Mm-hm. >> What it's also doing is giving that symbolism and that link to the red post that we looked earlier with [CROSSTALK] day. >> That's right. >> That this is the embodiment of his spirit. It's his wife, she has had to flee, now she is back in the country. >> That's right, yes. And that was captured at the, the airport when she arrived, that was for first group of journalists that were there. And she went straight back into, into work. went to all the rallies, and you know, speeches, public speeches on television, whatever. Yeah. >> So, in support for the public sentiment. >> That's right. >> Now, again I like this shot, partly for its composition. Because we know, water, we tend to think of those of instances, sunny day, pools, showers, that sort of thing. That's great, except that waters coming from an armored truck. And that's the residue from water cannon. >> That's right. >> And the composition here as you said is the foreign camera crew, the Chilean photographer et cetera. >> That's right. And was used very well by the NUJ, you know, national union of journalist, where I've been a long time member. >> Mm-hm. >> In a campaign about you know, freedom for the press in Chile, and repression of the, the press. so, I'm glad it was well used again. But you know, a camera crew recorded some demonstration. [INAUDIBLE] there just no, there was no discrimination between the protestors or the press. >> Okay, I mean, again, [CROSSTALK] . What I really wanted to think about here is that you know, you have the state in the form of, of a rigid truck. But it's slightly impotent at this point, because the water cannon isn't being manned. The water's just going anywhere, and suddenly breaking through what would otherwise been a barrier. you have freedom in, of the press come through. >> Mm-hm. >> Just as a thought, in terms of the way we might interpret this, and help us to get a, a, a handle. >> And how impersonal it can be, as with the case with the tear gas. It's just going to be a big, you know, robotic machine, you know, people with no brain wash probably. >> And, and both this image with water can and armed with tear gas, the state is only present in forms of distress i.e the gas, the high powered water hoses. Okay, thank you for that. again, a more classic sort of protest. could you talk us through it? The homemade banner. >> Yeah, the CNI's. It was the secret police, acronym for the secret police. The torture. The CNI, the secret police tortures. A very brave thing to do for young people to go and plant that banner. >> Yeah. >> At a demonstration. And you can see here I worked with the shadows of the of riot police. infront of them, they, they were just really not very happy and trying to murder them. But by that time, we're getting closer, that was the year before the referendum. >> Mm-hm. >> And political dissent was a bit more kind of you know, I wouldn't say tolerated, but you know. >> The focus of all of your images is the population and the state is moved to one side. >> Mm-hm. >> now is that in terms of legitimizing the protest and saying you know, these, these are the real Chileans. >> Mm-hm. >> Not the state who represent vested interest and, and those of. >> Sure. >> Of Pinochet's dictatorship. >> Yeah, that's the majority of the population, you know. >> Yeah [CROSSTALK]. >> So, you've reduced the state in this image as you say to these shadowy figures at the sides. >> Yes. >> Excellent. Okay. And, and here's the man himself. >> That's the man himself. I mean then people ask me about his speech and how close we were. We were very close. That was just a, it wasn't a very long lens. I think it's a, a portrait lens, an 85 or a 105. >> Mm-hmm. >> But it was during the referendum campaign, and you know, with a proper press pass which I had, you were allowed, and lots of security checks, you were allowed quite close. but I felt quite, you know. I don't know, difficult uneasy feeling there. >> The, the, the contrast with this image and many other because it does look more staged and posed. >> yeah. >> He has very much a perspective to tell. >> That's right. And it's not one a military, in a military uniform which is quite telling. >> Yeah. >> He's dresses as a civilian throughout the no campaign. You know? So, it sanitizes his image, and, and say hi guys, I am just one of you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that's an interesting point. As you said, you know, people who, who, in the 80s had lots of power and authority, but stood the power of Pinochet, Mrs Thatcher, a number of very powerful people who tried to appeal to the population as a whole. And sometimes were popular. >> Yes. >> but clearly were not one of the people. >> That's right. >> Okay. >> Good point. >> Now, thanks very much for coming and talking to us today. Can you tell us how students can follow up on your work and your images? >> >> You said this is for an amnesty, This is for an international expedition is going to be launched in September. >> Right. >> To coincide with the 40th anniversary of the coup in Chile. So, we're now open on the 9th of September. There's going to be some wine and rum. Check out my website julioetchart.com. And then from all those we're going to have some links to the exhibition is going to be online as well, >> Okay. >> At the Amnesty International site. >> Now, that's right. So, what I would try and do is give you the students out there as much supporting information as I can about how you can follow up on Julio and also his work as we've shown it today. Thank you very much sir. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you.