You did two courses with me last year so I knew you were a West brown supporter. >> Yes. >> So, it didn't surprise me too much when you picked Dame United, but just give me a little more context about [INAUDIBLE] why you selected that particular topic, and what you wanted to achieve in writing the essay. >> Okay, well I mean, It's not hard for anybody to see faults of massive [UNKNOWN] our culture in very tricky part, and to be able to be given the opportunity, to write about football as part of a historical debate an argument, I've been I couldn't turn that option to good [INAUDIBLE] so [LAUGH] you know to write about it is amazing. And, it's interesting because at the time of The Damned United, it almost reflect on what to change in the nature of the game itself, as well as depicting, of course, Brian Clough, who is probably, arguably, the most famous English manager ever to have lived, so yeah, that's, that's probably one of the major reasons why I picked it. >> No I appreciate your enthusiasm about doing this, but it's not just writhing about for four days, you know it- >> Oh, of course not, no It's also the, using historically, it's basically the man, Brian cloth is remembered as this legend, but though analysis we can see that maybe he wasn't that much of the great character he's defined as. So in a sense what I was doing was, assessing the nature of hero worship and cult of personality, which has been seen throughout so many leaders throughout the ages I mean look at Mao, Stalin. You were just going on about Stalin earlier, and it's, of course, he's a hero to some Russian people, but he murdered millions of people, so why is that? So, I think through public history we can actually find out, we can get a better idea about how cult personalities develop, because with public history we almost see, the emotions, maybe, the perceptions behind a character more so then he did a traditional, you know, looking through sources and events, per se. >> Now I have no problems about you working with that history, but it needs clearly, just within the context of degree there needs to be the structure the focus. And analytical framework that allows you to you know, engage in a topic that you you dearly love, but actually produce something that's going to be graded for an honest degree. >> Well yeah that's that's that was major problem I found with doing about football [INAUDIBLE] there's not many social historians, who focus on football, It's a very, niche, sub, subject, but, when you do find them they are surprisingly very academic and, it's, it's quite easy field to make into an academic source with, the sources are valuable once you do the research In a sense. >> And we talked a little bit about Rogan Taylor- >> Oh, yes. >> Just comment on some of his writing. >> Well, Rogan Taylor folks is a lot in the, social aspects of the game and he's, he's done a lot of work about the evolution of the game from working man's, but originally he, he suggests that it was made by the upper class, the game was made by the upper class, but it was taken on by the working class, which is where you've got this football culture that was evolved throughout the ages., and he also goes on about well, my period of this football, the 70s. He, describes about the way that football changed slightly, how this was after the golden ages of 66, which of course everybody knows, World Cup winners, I mean we all like to think we were there, but obviously we weren't, so but yes it was it was dark age, I mean there's another one Matthew Taylor as well. Another famous he wrote the book on the football association history says that the tactics have changed as well, I mean the tactics were were very archaic in the view of things. >> Now you say football I understand what you're talking about, but it's association football. And just think about it around the world In America you'll say football, some people going to think about gridiron Yeah. Uh,we talk about this in the Australian state of Victoria, and then maybe, maybe, we'll be thinking about Australian rules. >> Yeah. >> So culturally, what does football mean to you? >> Well, I think, over with, it reflects a lot about English society and British society, I want to [INAUDIBLE] mean it's such an intrinsic part, I mean, if you ask anybody, I mean, some people might have, support football, but there will always be somebody, sorry, association football, but there will always be somebody in your family who will support football. And it will be an intrinsic, I mean, in the past it was more so because It brought people together. The working class together, It would be something to talk about, something from the dreary lives of working that be something to be excited for for the weekend something to look forward to. And around it different cultures involved like there was a certain drinking culture that evolved around Football as well, which brought together people in, which then tied into things like working man's clubs, pubs, things like that. So it is a, which again, are, are intrinsic parts of British society so in a sense this ball has evolved and has jointed into other parts of English society, and British society as a whole. Which made it such, I mean all you have to do is look at the back page of a sports paper, what is the dominant sport? And it's not rugby, It's not cricket It's not hockey It used to be horse racing in the past, but now it's mainly football. >> And, and sort of from my area of study, there's a part of me that says, well, It's, it's a cultural phenomenon, but it's also now a big business. >> Oh yes its totally evolved, I mean you can started to evolve with the cutting of the maximum players which needed to happen because it professional football you don,t expect to have a [UNKNOWN] but immediately when that happened the money was raised, the players were managers and clubs willing to pay you know. Massive salvage better keep the best players, and as soon as this money was injected in it's no longer I mean it's in the [INAUDIBLE] with Sam [UNKNOWN] who is the uh,chairman of Darby county which is [UNKNOWN] of some major success. Which leads one to lead and of course [INAUDIBLE] that's his biggest success, but, he, he says in the film, at one point I have a fan who bought this club for the club I love to run it. Now, you don't get that nowadays, let's look at, say, or, take one out of the blue Man City, for example, are they fancy the club? No, they thought they were buying Manchester United when they bought it, so it just shows you how the money at the end of the day has changed the game even more so, I mean it's still it's still very important to our culture, but it's evolved more so from its working class roots now to almost, family oriented I won't say exclusively family oriented. But if you go to a stadium such as the [UNKNOWN] It's a lot more family friendly, you can say going to somewhere like, >> The Shed End at Chelsea springs to mind. >> Yeah, yes, or else figure Stoke, you know, Stoke City at the Britannia, that's it, let's make it like that. >> Excellent, now you made the point that David Peace's novel- >> Yes so much as a noble, can you explain a little bit around that in terms of historical representation. >> Well, when you actually read the book, It,s there are a lot of events that happen that there is no evidence to support they ever happened, and they never happened. And for one example it's when Brian takes over Leeds United the first thing he does in the book, is to burn Don Revie's desk. This never happened, and quite frankly, this is very psychotic behavior I, I know Brian is a character, but he wasn't a full-on, you know, psycho. So, things like that represent how, I mean, as David P says he, he said in our newspaper last quarter called 44 Days in, in writing. He said that he wanted to present Briarcliff as a caricature, as a memory of the man he used to know growing up watching football. >> Mm-hm. >> Rather than the actual person he was [INAUDIBLE] interestingly you had a lot of lawsuits that came about after the publication of the novel Johnny Giles is the major one that springs to mind. He was a Leeds United player, and a very good player at that, although he did like to put studs in challenge but that's by the he he actually said that we was portrayed as scheming leprechaun, and that he would sue if they kept pressing him. They settled out court and because of the, Piece had to say it was a historical, piece of historical fiction, historical novel. And interestingly, you can see almost changes in the film, after this been happen, as after this has happened because, certain events like for instance the burning of the desk is completely omitted from the film. Which are I'd say quite a key point in the book, into representing this character of Brian Clough. This, this burning hatred, almost, for Don Revie, which it could be argued didn't exist in that extreme. >> Mm-hm. >> Now with the film itself clearly based on the book, which is based on historical events. >> Yes. >> You made the point that it's David Peace's remembrance of Clough. >> Yeah. >> Not a historical representation of Clough. >> Yes. >> Talk about how you feel that the, memory of Brian Clough is represented in the film, as opposed to what you've been able to piece together in terms of Cloughie himself. >> I think the key aspect of this question is to analyze the rivalry between Brian Clough and Don Revie, how it was portrayed in the book, compared to where it actually happened. Now in the book and the film, it's his driving influence, It's, it's what makes him want to be a better manager. >> Mm-hm. >> Don Revie he hates Don Revie Dirty, dirty Leeds I mean, in, in both the book and the film, there are fabricated events to almost give him this sort of motive, motivation. In this film, it's Don Revie won't shake his hand after an FA Cup game It was at Darby county again, this never happened. And in the book it's more down to, to do with, common set between the two. Now there might have been, there, there was a rather between them, definitely, but was it to that same extent? I would argue more so that it was more in par with Barnetiez, Ruff Barnitez and Sir Alex Ferguson in present day. You would say there is a rivalry, but you wouldn’t say it was going down to Ruff Binetez is taking down Sir Alex Ferguson. So this shows is how Image of Brian Cliff has changed the myth, the legend around him has changed because a simple thing like that they didn't agree with each of his place stones, has been evolved into so much more Into a conflict that never truly occurred I mean, in his autobiography Cliff never stayed in state, he had this massive rivalry. He said it was a minor rivalry, and the main reason that he wanted to take over the league is in fact that he wanted to win the European Cup. No mention of Revy at all, so this shows this caricature of Brian Clif, because it shows they want to represent him as being this attack and stick figure against Revy but he never was. [BLANK_AUDIO]
