So thanks for talking about both of your topics individually. Can you just give me something about how you're going to take some of the skills you'd learned doing your independent essays each for third year. Isabelle. >> Let's say. Would be methodology. He would be, looking into [INAUDIBLE]. I've encountered to difficulties, especially his In the Name of the Father approach is, is. Some what, it is embarrassing for the British judicial system. It, the availability of evidence is a little scant. And [INAUDIBLE] the commission into the miscarriage of justice. Justice is well I can't get I can't get my hands on that source. Because it's held, withheld under the 30 year rule at the national archives. So I think yeah. But there's there's been a problem with the availability of sources because it's such a contentious. This issue. >> Okay, Andrew. >> I think the main thing I'll take from the [UNKNOWN] into the verger is to never take a character at face value. Always look into the differences. I mean, if I was to take, just if I was just to ask somebody in the street about Brian Cloth, about him, the answer would be totally different to the reality. So, I mean, that's mainly the thing I've learned from this course is always cross-reference, find the sources, dig deep, because there's always something that you can find that will disprove, like, a common opinion. >> Now that's great, thank you for that. Now, just in terms of the difference between the. I find everything difficult.The acadmeic history you've been doing, and the public history you've been doing, in terms of your studies. How would you contrast the difference between the two? >> The freedom of public history is, I mean, it's just novel. Being able to look at some sources that we've never previously looked at. >> Mm-hm. >> In. Academic history. I'd say the person for me academic history is probably a bit easier because their established lines and you have to go down those lines. You've got a lot of people written for you. So you've always got this jumping petal almost to go off. And to write your essays. With public history it's a lot more interesting because the source is your handling. And I'm not necessarily used to they're quite alien I mean. Using things such as film. So that they can, modern newspaper. I mean compared to looking at say medieval text or something like that. It's a lot different. its [UNKNOWN]. >> OK easy Just in terms of the quotes power image per say, tell me how youre affected by the film relative to just reading the book? >> I think the [UNKNOWN] with the film. being and English [UNKNOWN] you couldnt help but come away feeling a sense of shock and [UNKNOWN] the shock that that could happen, but then [UNKNOWN] 2013 [UNKNOWN] 2012 youre reminded that these things. It's what happened in society with the Hillsborough. >> Mm-hm. the, you know, the Hillsborough disaster which revealed, you know, the police cover-ups [INAUDIBLE]. And I think it's, Jerry Collin himself made a very important point that, the you know, the troubles in Ireland sort of beginning to lay to rest. Well, compared to what happened and the troubles that they had in the 80s and the 70s. but that [UNKNOWN] of justice is still the, it could still happen and the color and the religion. If there's a most vulnerable, his action changed and developed [UNKNOWN] Islamist terrorism so although. Contemporary view is, you know, theft, they're farther from the history. They can still relate it to contemporary society because we fail to avoid learned lessons with history, and problems with miscarriage is just as still as high in learned society. >> Ok, so, the, the, the, the film was more emotionally powerful. Fall, compared to the book which as a memoir. >> Yeah. >> Um,uh, to what degree is that passive versus active? You have to be an active investigator going through the book, you can be a passive participant in watching the film. >> Yeah. I definitely think that's true. And you have to, I suppose you, with both you have to. Oh, I don't know. You have to realize that there's, you know, both the subjective. But, yeah. I agree that you can be more passive in watching, and, and, the arguments, presented to you in a more accessible way. >> Now, Andrew, in terms of, the films. The film you looked at, but also TV coverage, et cetera. >> Yes. What do you perceive as the changes in British football, British culture between the 1970's and the second decade of the 21st century with regards to the representation of the game? >> Hm. That's, that's quite an interesting question. I'd say definitely looking at the film on TV with a game, you can see how the money that's been put, injected in has changed it almost from a sport to a form of entertainment now, and a business. I mean, which I'd say is probably the argument behind the difference being Clough from Revie was that Revie was a sportsman, whereas Clough was an entertainer. And you can see through, I mean just look at [UNKNOWN] Sports News now, [INAUDIBLE] Sport coverage compared to the BBC coverage. I mean, with the BBC coverage you get very strait-laced, oh he's got the ball, he shoots, you know. But with Scot's now you've got, you've got the 24-hour news which is always going on [UNKNOWN] Sports News. >> Such as the next 24 hours. >> We'll yeah of course. And, it also, if you look at sports coverage now, it's, it's much more of an event, then just a sports game. It's, you get, you get all the pretty much build up, you get videos, of you know, like some sort of orchestral score going in the background, while Fergie faces off against Benitez, or you know, Art or Wenger against Fergie, you know. Big rivals fight. The, the game's become a lot more commercialized, a lot more commercialized, which you could argue has strength the game in some ways, and it's been detrimental more in other ways. I mean the money injected means we see a better quality of football. That's without a doubt. I mean in my view anyway. I know, I know a lot of people like to look back in the good old days, but personally I think you wouldn't have the likes of you know, the [UNKNOWN], the [UNKNOWN] if you didn't have the money. But on the flip side, of course, you lose out from the actual culture gang itself, where it evolved from. It's changed so much from you can't just go now down to the pub and speak to the players. You know, before a game, or even after the game you know say [INAUDIBLE] you know, mate Jones or whoever the player is. Granted but you're safe, but you're, you're almost more alienated from the players now which in a way makes them more, as a child their more of your heroes now because you never get to see them, so you always, you treasure any moment you get to see them. But as you get older, this is a good view. You start to think wow, you got to player like a West Brom Odemwingie, refusing to play. Twitter rants and the like. Why are you at my club? Why am I watching this sport anymore, coz it's, it's the integrity is leaving this sport. I, I go, I'll keep watching it but I mean, the whole Odemwingie debacle. Somebody's being paid that much money, and he's not playing. >> Mm-hm. Well, I appreciate it especially in a time of economic recession where people are being laid off, so. >> And if you look at the price of season tickets, you know, they're not cheap. [LAUGH]. >> They're not cheap at all. [LAUGH]. >> Now, just to move in a just slightly different direction, both of you looked at aspects of British society in the 1970s and beyond into the 1980s as well. Without focusing specifically on your subjects in the film, what impression did you get of Britain during this time from, from a broader historical perspective? And we know, Izzy, you've talked about injustice Andy, you talked about hero worship. But what do those things tell us why the palette in the context of the 1970s? >> It was a great period of change. You can, you can see it was a massive, I mean there was so many different factors. I mean there was social, political, economic factors all into one big melting pot which changed our culture I'd argue to an extent. Let's say if you'd look at the increasing immigrations, say after post war immigration. >> Mm-hm. >> We saw a change in culture, you see things like with the muds and the ruckers coming into play. You see a change in youth culture as well. >> You know, is it, I mean you being a West Bomb supporter, we talked about Saul Rigas, Fred Battson, [CROSSTALK]. Yeah exactly. Now at the time, you know, there's a parallel to an American singing group. >> Oh yeah? >> So there's a little bit of the, the unusual whereas they were great players and they were English. >> Bomb, brilliant. Izzy. >> Yeah, I'd think it's definitely all the change they had that makes [UNKNOWN] to the film. But the changes in government were [UNKNOWN] to three two to Labor and especially in relation to the film. The change from [UNKNOWN] to major still concerns the government still facilitated the process of peace, you know, peace process. And the outcomes of the group fighting agreement and how it aides sort of anti-Irish relations, And also through this age, I couldn't help notice the impact of media on just public opinion in every way shape and form, and how, okay. Again, I'm referring to another part of [LAUGH]. You know, they argue that the media put the Guilford Four into print and again facilitated their needs by sort of protest and broadcasting of the actual inaccuracies in the evidence. You know, so it shows how the media is just so, all powerful in this age. >> Great. Thank you very much. Okay, I appreciate very much the two of you coming up to talk to me today in this forum. Going a little bit off topic, you both chose to do a history degree. >> Yes. >> Any regrets? >> Hm. Nah. [LAUGH] No, I'm really enjoying it. >> Although we did say on the way here, didn't we, we were comparing English literature and history and we were saying the history is very similar to English. How you have your set you know opinions on events but the English is pretty easy because you don't have to provide all the evidence. >> Evidence. Exactly. [LAUGH]. >> So anybody's who's got an English degree and really you're clearly being critical so. >> Sorry [LAUGH]. >> Okay and there's always the question what are you going to do with the history degree. Pretty great. >> That a good question. >> Yeah you've got another year to go guys. So thanks very much for coming today. And I'm not going to make you I want to be a train driver. [INAUDIBLE] Thanks again for those [INAUDIBLE] and thanks for explaining how you've sort of taken the issues of referencing historical events to public history and film, it's been very useful. Thank you again. >> Thanks for having us. >> Been a very interesting course. [BLANK_AUDIO]
