Well, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and participate in this interview. I know that you have a ton of knowledge and expertise to share with our students. So I thought we just start with kind of a basic question, just a little bit about you. If you could tell us about yourself, and how you came to the practice of mindfulness. >> Sure, sure, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. It's really delightful to talk to you again. And I hope that what I can share is of some benefit to the students in this course. Yeah, so I was born and raised in like a small town in north Texas outside of Fort Worth. So I was not born into Buddhism. [LAUGH] I was born into the fundamentalist protestant Christianity. And I ended up kind of drifting away from that, as a lot of kids do in high school at some point, and then I arrived at Rice. I think I would have called myself agnostic, but I was a spiritual seeker, I just didn't realize it yet. So I was taking all these philosophy courses and linguistics, and really curious about the nature of reality. And then I happened to take an East Asian cultures survey course with three different professors, one of whom was Anne Klein in the Department of Religion. And she had us read some Buddhist texts, and I just fell in love. I was like, my God, are you kidding me, other people think about this stuff? So it just felt like kind of coming home, [LAUGH] and I immediately added a major, I added a religious studies major and just went all the way down the rabbit hole. So really my introduction to mindfulness, contemplative practice, it kind of all came through Buddhism, which is probably the reason that I am Buddhist now. [LAUGH] And so what I'll be saying is really coming more from a Buddhist perspective. But yeah, basically from the time I kind of was introduced to a systematic study and cultivation of the mind, that was it, I was sold. So yeah, I've had more experience with mindfulness, kind of coming back at it from a Buddhist perspective than necessarily starting there and going to Buddhism. >> Yeah, but that's one of the reasons why I wanted you to participate in this interview is, one of the things that we focus on in this class is some of the traditional philosophical and religious roots of the practice. And with your expertise, I just thought it would be such an interesting perspective for you to lend to the students in the course overall. Well, I guess, so you've been doing this for a long time now, tell us a little bit about how you've seen your practice evolve over time. >> Yeah, this is really something I've only recently kind of recognized. I started practicing in 1997, so it's been like, I don't know, 20 some odd years [LAUGH] now. And I think in the beginning, I mean, I was a Rice kid, right? I was a high achiever, I was like give me a goal and I will meet the goal. So in the beginning, I encountered daily practice as kind of the goal for starting your mindfulness practice or your meditation practice. I was like I'm going to do it every day and I'd sit every day. And there was kind of a tight quality to my practice, which I think is actually helpful in the beginning. Because if you don't have a schedule and you don't stick to it, it's really hard to start gaining traction. And also, in the beginning, at least for me, my mind was just used to going everywhere. And it really took some effort and some energy to kind of keep pulling it back, keep pulling it back. But what I've realized over the years, as I just put in more time and settling becomes a little bit more natural to my mind, is now the challenge is actually more about letting go. About learning to relax into that flow of concentration or the flow of mindfulness, not exerting quite as much effort, not being like I'm going to hold my mind on the breath. But more kind of relaxing into, okay, what's the experience around attending to the breath or what happens to my mind when I extend compassion beams in all directions? So I feel like for me the journey has been from that more effortful, as my teacher Harvey Aronson says, that more effortful form of practice, into a more relaxed and spacious form. >> What would you attribute that shift to? >> Part of it is bound to be maturity, [LAUGH] just not being quite as young and as like I'm not sure of myself, so I'm going to go at it 110%, and try and prove myself here. I think too, part of it though is that as you do this practice, the practice does begin to change you. So I feel like there have just been changes to the way that I relate to the world. I get in my way less, maybe, [LAUGH] especially when it comes to meditation, the idea that I was just thinking for five minutes, it doesn't really derail me as much now. So I think part of it is just the practice working on me. It's been transformative, so that there's just less to do, it's more about relaxing into. At least I'd like to think that, [LAUGH] maybe I'm just getting lazy. But I don't think it's that, [LAUGH]. >> [LAUGH] I doubt that, yeah. Is there a particular concept or teaching that for you has resonated the most or been the most transformative? >> Yeah, I was trying to think of an answer to this. And honestly, I think the very first text that I read that Anne assigned to us in that East Asian culture survey course at Rice, it was about deconstructing our sense of self. It's called the Questions of King Milinda. It's like this old Buddhist sutra about basically a monk kind of taking a king through this imaginative exercise. Where they're talking about the king's chariot, but they're also really talking about the sense of self. And the monk says, you have a chariot, right? And the king's like, yeah, obviously, that's how I came here today. And the monk is like, well, if I took off one of the wheels, would it still be a chariot? And the king's like, well, yeah, duh. And the monks like, well, if I took off the other wheel, still a chariot? King's like, yeah, and the monks like, well, what if I took out the axle? Just piece by piece, going through, we could do the same thing with our cars nowadays, like how many pieces could you take out before it's not a car anymore? And to me just the idea that basically we take collections of parts and then we put like a glossy cover on it, and and it looks like it's one solid thing. The idea that the world can all be broken down into parts, it just blew my mind. And the idea also that really we just have moments of experience and we create a narrative sense of self out of moments, that too, I think, is really mind blowing. But it's also where the freedom comes in, because you start to see I'm not trapped in this pattern. I've been doing this to myself, or I've been participating in this pattern for years or maybe decades, but that doesn't mean it can't change. >> Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, right? Sort of the ability to feel like there was something that you really strongly identified with and was an inherent, innate part of you, to think that that may not be the case. And that, really, you could evolve a pattern or a personality trade or something of that nature. >> Yeah, I feel like this is kind of at the root of the Buddhist project with meditation that you're never fixed. And that meditation is a way of intentionally like plucking the weeds, stopping at least not feeding certain habits and feeding others and the idea that that can fundamentally change you over time. It's mind blowing, but it seems to work. >> Yeah. So, you just mentioned you've been doing this for a long time, 23, 24, years. What do you still struggle with? >> Pretty much the same thing. [LAUGH] The fact that we're not fixed, that were not constant. I think, It's sort of like in a Greek tragedy or like a Shakespearean tragedy, like the greatest character strength of the hero is also their downfall. [LAUGH] I have a similar sense of this in terms of what's difficult to take in, because it's easy at an intellectual level to think like, wow, I'm capable of change, blah, blah blah. But for me, at the moment, for instance, I recently immigrated to Canada. There's just all these big changes happening in my life and I think at the lived level of experience to really bump up against like, there's nothing fixed, there's nothing solid things could change at any time. The world seemed pretty stable and then COVID happened, everything changed. And I think experientially for me anyway, I don't know if it's my personality or what, but I find that difficult, just to deal with in terms of daily life and also, but it's easy to want to go there and practice when I'm not dealing with all the changes. But when I am, sometimes trying to go there in my practice life just feels like, you know what I want to break. I'm going to reflect on something else like compassion today. I'm good. >> Yeah. Like, so, I mean, I feel like you're talking about the what part of what it feels really freeing to think that there is no essential sense of self, but then there is also some fear that can escalate around it because it's not as black and white. We don't have these permanent existence that we like to think that we can count on and things can kind of turn on a dime, which we don't really recognize until things do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, okay. Okay, so that's great. So, I'm going to change gears a little bit on you now. I get a lot of questions from students who are really challenged by the concepts of equanimity and non attachment and they sometimes equate these characteristics with things like ambivalence or indifference. Can you explain to us why that might be a misunderstanding. >> Yeah, again, I want to quote my teachers, Harvey Aaronson and also Anne Klein who introduced me to Buddhism so long ago. They talk about near enemies and far enemies of equanimity and the other, they're called for boundless states, which you addressed in this course. And the near enemy of any of these states is kind of like the thing that looks like it, but isn't, and then obviously the far enemy is like the opposite of that thing. So, like for equanimity, the far enemy would be like reactivity or getting on Facebook and getting in an argument with somebody. [LAUGH] But then everybody, it's clear to see that that's the opposite of equanimous behavior. But the near enemy of equanimity really can be apathy, like that sense of ambivalence or honestly. I would say for myself, just observing my own mind and my own progress as a practitioner, it's easier to fake equanimity and to pretend that you don't care and underneath that kind of wall of denial, there's actually all sorts of preferences going on. So, like ambivalence or apathy or this idea that you're somehow going to get beyond caring about an outcome or having attachments and aversions and stuff. I think that's just not how it goes, like equanimity in the sense that I prefer to understand it is an even engagement with everyone. So, it's not that you don't care about anything, it's that you care, but you're caring spreads out equally instead of just caring about the people who are close to us and then the people we don't like or disagree with. We're okay with terrible things happening to them. So, really equanimity, I would say the difference between that kind of disengagement and true equanimity, is is there an engaged caring aspect to it? Or is it just a sense of blankness? >> Okay. So, it seems to me that almost everybody who gets anywhere with mindfulness, meditation will pass through periods of negative emotion, confusion, like heightened sensitivity to internal and external risings. Can you talk a little bit about what kinds of things might provoke this and give us some advice for how we might lean into these experiences. >> So, that's actually really common. It's totally normal. It's actually kind of a good sign if you started meditating and then you realize, my God, my mind is so busy. I think maybe meditation is making me have more thoughts. It's a great sign to realize that you're having that response or to have that kind of sensitivity. Not that it's pleasant, [LAUGH] but that it means you're actually noticing what's been happening the whole time. Like I mentioned having this wall of denial, I think we often just we cut ourselves off from so much of our own experience that when we start practicing, if there's sadness that's been tucked away somewhere. Or anger or all these impulses that are part of us, but that maybe some of us who I grew up with some perfectionistic tendencies or maybe in a household where it wasn't safe to express certain emotions. They're all in there. And when we start doing this kind of practice, we're reconnecting with what's actually there. And I think this is part of the reason that in traditional presentations of Buddhism or most contemplative paths, they really talk about the benefits of having a teacher and having a community. Because those two aspects that human connection can just help you get through the like on ramp. [LAUGH] It's not all heightened sensitivity. It's not all your mind going crazy. But there are definitely times, not just when you're starting, there could be times when your practice deepens. Or just times when something difficult happens in your life and maybe in the past you would have dealt with it through denial or distracting yourself and now you don't have those options anymore. So, I just want to normalize that. And also say, it's really a time to seek out the resources that may be available to you in your community. And it's a great opportunity to connect with other people to around our shared vulnerabilities and moments when we don't feel like we have it all under control. >> Yeah, I mean, that's a great point and I talk about in my personal experience with this practice is that it can be incredibly humbling, at various points I have. Witnessed parts of myself that I'm like, wow! [LAUGH] And it's hard to hold that without judgment and to really turn towards those aspects of who I am that I may not like as much with both. Yeah, just any kind of compassion. And so I appreciate what you're saying about finding a teacher and finding a community. And really trying to seek connection through some of that, I know that's that's been really useful to me as well, right? So as an expert on Buddhism, I'm hoping that you can share some of your insights on the Buddhist conceptualization of the self. Which of course you've talked about already. And why it is that our attachment to a false sense of self or an ego itself or however you might phrase it can cause so much suffering. So you've already kind of alluded to, it's a really difficult concept. It's difficult to wrap your head around and to understand and it's also difficult to sort of accept and be with. But I'm just wondering if through your time on the cushion you've been able to relate to that any differently. >> Yes, definitely. I think when I started out, so I started practicing more in the Thai forest tradition. I was meditating at a Thai temple near Houston. And then I actually went with my Thai teacher and like did longest periods of retreat in Thailand and retreat centers. And I think my sense of things in those early days was like as I walked this path, my ultimate goal is to disassemble my sense of self. And it's terrifying if you think about it that way. [LAUGH] Because we identify so strongly with that unquestioned since there's some kind of self here. And it feels like without that I would disappear. And what I've come to understand partly they're just more practice. But also partly through than also studying and practicing in the Tibetan tradition with my teachers and Harvey. Is that the problem with like this small sense of self or this distorted sense of self isn't that that is bad. It's that it's covering up this amazing true self that is beyond words and beyond images, beyond duality, beyond conceptual reality. So it's not that the goal of practices to dismantle who I am. It's like there's this really classic example used that our Buddha nature which is kind of our true self. Again, we're using words for it, but it's really beyond words. But our Buddha nature is like a lamp and then our false sense of self is like a clay jar that we put around that lamp. With that jar around it, you can't see any of the light. But the point of practices to start like knocking little holes in that clay jar. So you start to see that light kind of shining out of renouncement and sooner or later you do away with the clay jar and there's just a lamp. So I think to me that really sums up like both the importance of analyzing our unreflective sense of self and really asking, is this me? It's an exercise Buddhist can do like endlessly, like is that me, is this moment of experience me. But the point of it all is to poke those tiny little holes in that seemingly solid sense of self. So that what's been obscuring us like our whole lives doesn't have to be there forever. Does that make sense? >> Yeah, do you think, would you mind, could you give us a concrete example from your life? >> Sure, so I have kind of a silly example for explaining teasing apart that overly solid sense of self. So I have recently immigrated from Texas to Quebec. And I mean I was born in Texas, like I just have a strong sense of identity with that state even though sometimes I'm like really, what are we doing here? But I went in to get my Quebec driver's license. And obviously I had to take my Texas driver's license in so they could contact the Texas system and make sure everything was legitimate. But what I didn't realize was that I had to give up my Texas driver's license. And in that moment where the guy was like okay, hand it over, I'm going to shred it now, I was just like, my God. [LAUGH] It was like a sense of self that I didn't realize I had. Like this really strong like cultural construction of who I am. And in that moment of like having that come to the surface because I felt like I was about to lose it. And then now, like the only driver's license I have is a Quebec one. It was a moment where I had to realize that is not me. Nothing about me has changed like this part of my identity, that's where I was born in this lifetime. As a Buddhist I don't even believe there's just one lifetime. Let alone that I have to be stuck in some kind of mold forever because that's where I happened to be born. So I know it's a little bit simplistic maybe, but to have that sense of self become more open and more fluid. It's really opened up for me the possibility of letting go of something rigid, relaxing into something that fits my current reality better. And I think really at the end of the day, that's what this kind of investigation into self. And what is myself, where is it, how do I keep that construct going? That's what it's about, it's about opening into greater flexibility and being able to meet the moment in the way that makes sense instead of in the ways that we're conditioned to do. >> So Pre-Buddhist, premeditating clay that may have been like a and holding on tightly and maybe not even giving over the license. But here we are a couple of decades later, you notice a little bit of clutching and then you have that sort of releasing, letting go. This isn't even reflective of an iota of who I am. It's okay for me to give this over. >> Yeah, or maybe back in the day, I would have given it over and then hung up on it for weeks. And now, like I was kind of freaked out and then a couple of days later I was like, yeah, that's life. >> Yeah, it's not recover really quickly. >> Exactly, yeah, I think that's actually a really important point. Like a lot of people think, if I've been meditating for awhile, I shouldn't get angry anymore or I shouldn't whatever. And it's not that you don't have these human feelings arise, it's maybe you don't act on them or maybe you metabolize them more quickly. So I just want to say yes, I did get freaked out by that. >> Right I know, I really appreciate that you're saying that as a human being, you continue to have human emotions. You just learn how to relate to them differently and move through them perhaps more quickly. Definitely, there's there's stories of the Dalai Lama, like, I mean one of the most amazing awakened humans I can think of. And they say that every time he meets new refugees coming over from Tibet, he cries. So it's not that he somehow sees everything that happens is good and beautiful and wonderful and. No, he cries, but then he recovers and I think that's a really powerful teaching. >> Well, so one of the goals of this course was to help students better understand all of the ways that we're interconnected, from the cosmic level, all the way down to our more kind of minute daily interactions. And I guess part of my hope in doing so was to help people feel more connected, maybe connected to themselves, to other people and to the planet at large. And I wanted to inspire the cultivation of compassion because for me that just seems profoundly lacking from society today. Can you talk about some of the specific ways or practices that help you source compassion in your life? >> Yeah, and maybe this is a place where my answer is different than it would be if I didn't practice buddhism. I guess the first part of my answer is that there are these wonderful meditations like what Kristin Neff has developed on self compassion. And the four boundless states, wonderful traditional meditations on cultivating that sense of love and compassion and joy and spreading into all beings. And there are wonderful resources in this course. I think one of the other things really that I as kind of a traditional practicing buddhist have available to me is if things get to be too much. I call on the buddha of compassion [LAUGH] I feel like there are these sort of trans personal energies or powers that we evoke through practice that help us not become so depleted. And I think whether someone believes in that or not, or whether somebody thinks of it as just the universe at large or he profound interconnections among us all. There's something available that we can call on to supply us with more than just our own personal amount of compassion if you want to put it that way. I think that's part of a traditional buddhist view that maybe gets lost a little bit sometimes as people are more comfortable with like secular buddhism or with mindfulness. There's a real sense that we're not in it alone, that we can call on the budha of compassion or wisdom or there's just a lot of figures out there who are willing and able to help us. And at the end of the day, the buddhist understanding, for instance of the buddha of compassion, here I'm thinking of Avila Cortes Farrah. It's that that's not a figure outside ourselves, it's really a figure that helps to evoke that potential for compassion within ourselves. So, coming back to the theme of buddha nature. Yeah, I really do feel that there's actually something greater than myself that's available to help supply [LAUGH] if you will that sense of compassion or concern for others. >> Can you think of any, I'm going to use the word secular examples, but for people that don't identify as Buddhists and maybe don't, aren't comfortable recognizing the buddha of compassion or what have you. Are there other sources that they could tap into, that you know of? >> Yeah, absolutely. One way that, again, my teachers have guided compassion meditations and that I've found really useful is. If invoking like a sacred being doesn't really work for you, you can invoke the most loving person you can think of. You can invoke your grandmother, you can invoke Gandhi's kind of brilliant political compassion or you can invoke the Dalai Lama, just that energy that he has. I think sometimes we don't recognize enough our physiological conditioning as humans to respond to someone we think of or see or hold in our minds. So even just thinking of the Dalai Lama for instance, I've all ready evoked him here, so I'll go with him. But thinking of him and that laugh and if you are in a stressful or difficult situation and you can take a moment and settle into yourself and realize like, I have the same compassion. I have the same potential for compassion that the Dalai Lama does, what would he do? Even like imagining him maybe above the crown of your head. I'm just using him as an example, obviously could be anyone. I think inspiring ourselves with these kinds of figures who draw something out of us. That's, that's really the point of buddhist practice of evoking Buddhas and we can use it with any kind of figure that makes sense. We don't even have to have experienced, some incredibly loving figure in our lifetime. We could imagine the most loving version of ourselves and allow that as kind of a figure into itself to really inspire our practice or to help charge us up. But yeah, I think we underestimate the extent to which we can find energy and charge by using our imaginations. >> And so, I mean, you're kind of getting to this and you mentioned the word physiology, and imagination and kind of energy and charge. And so part of what's coming up for me is what seems the most important is that we evoke the sensation of compassion in the body. So it becomes a more embodied practice with that we're able to use the power of our imagination to really invite those kinds of the physical feeling of compassion. Is that what you're getting at? >> Absolutely, I think that's when we have lasting change. When we're making not just an aspiration or a wish, we're trying to change our thinking, but we're actually feeling what it's like in our body when we feel compassion. We're like retraining our whole system, I think with this form of embodied practice to hold a different configuration. To me, that's really what compassion meditation is. You're holding, it's almost like holding a yoga pose, you're developing certain muscles, you're developing flexibility, you're developing the ability to do that with less effort more spontaneously. So, yeah, I think at the end of the day that form of embodied practice, it has way more impact than just thinking I wish I felt compassionate right now [LAUGH] >> Yeah, that makes sense, you can recruit more muscles- >> Absolutely, literally and metaphorically [LAUGH] >> Okay, what tips or advice would you give anybody on this path? >> I think honestly my main advice based on my own practice would be just don't give up [LAUGH]. I think, looking back on my own path, there have just been times when I feel like I'm not making any progress or times when I feel like maybe I'm hopeless [LAUGH]. And fortunately, those times haven't lasted very long, but they always open into something different. I think it's like with exercise or anything else, you hit a certain plateau and you feel like maybe nothing's happening. Why am I spending so much time on this? But, it's such an investment in ourselves and in our future happiness that yeah, if I had only one piece of advice, I would just say just don't stop [LAUGH] >> Yeah, well is there anything else that you'd like to share about the value of this practice and what it's brought to your life? >> Yeah, I mean I have a hard time picturing myself without it just because basically from the time I was becoming an adult, I've been doing this practice. But, I really feel the more I do it, I feel the capacity that has to transform me and each of us, we're just living through such a time of change and upheaval. And I feel that each of us, the more we can find our own grounding and from that place connect with others, we just increase our capacity to make change in the world and to make this a better place to leave to future generations. So, I hope people who are inspired and who want to follow this path. I hope they feel empowered to do it and to not minimize the benefits that come to ourselves and others from doing it. >> Yeah, well, thank you so much. Thanks for your time and just with that last thought, I think that's a wonderful sort of way for us to wrap things up. It's just to celebrate the gifts of this practice and the gifts that you shared with us today. So, thank you again for taking the time and I know that the students will get a lot from what you shared today. >> Thanks so much for having me and I'm just so glad that this course is being made and I hope it benefits so many people and countless living beings. >> Thank you.
