I feel like a lot of why people would call this type of writing bullshit is because it's not narrative, and it doesn't follow any sort of conventional plot in the poem. So it's hard to find the story of the poem that makes it more difficult to read on the surface, but I think that in a poem like 20 which, it seems like it's difficult to penetrate the first time you look at it. As you go along you can kind of find your own connections in it and I think that's what makes it fun to read. And that's what makes it rewarding because the reader has more interaction within it. Like you can see, you notice I think armoires pointed this out when we had our video discussion but the first time that 20 is mentioned it is written out numerically, and then it switches to sheepish twenty spelled out t-w-e-n-t-y. So just little things like that. Bullshit. >> It could be bullshit, but it could be significant. It could be significant to you as the reader, and I think that's what makes it more interactive and why we come back to these problems because there's a lot of work to be done on the part of the reader. >> Yeah. Max, if I have a dream, and a series of dream associations, they are as real to me as the days' work at my desk, which is a series of conscious sequences, at best. >> [LAUGH] >> But if the day is going well, it's a series of conscious sequences. I do that, and then that leads to this. But the dream is still apart of my reality. And if I choose to write about a sequence of conscious steps, I've written one kind of poem. But if I decide to try to figure out how to write about that dream, then the poem if interpreted could be called bullshit, but it's still my dream. Barbara guessed Had a series of associations, and they are what they are. And you can call them bullshit. Not, Isabel. But, she's supposing someone could call them bullshit. Or you could sit down and listen to Barbara and friends try to figure out what her dream Dream says. Not what it meant, but what it says. So, I welcome the bullshit in that sense. Max, do you welcome it in that sense? >> Well, yeah. That's sort of a psychoanalytical approach almost. >> I don't think it's been called that. Can we psychoanalyze you? >> Sure, let's have at it. Let me say psychoanalysis has been called bullshit for a 100 years now. So it's- >> A cigar is just a cigar Dr. Floyd. Why you telling me something else? Stop telling me something else. >> But I think with Barbara Guest and John Ashbery in instruction manual >> What they're doing, it's a little different from the bullshit of psychoanalysis. I think they're acknowledging the fact that the dream comes into being when we remember it, when we sort of enter that dream like associative world. So it's not like you're just trying to remember your dream as it was and telling Freud, who's going to tell you what you're really thinking. But rather, it's about. We've all had dreams that had felt very real, and then when we wake up in the morning they kind of disappear. But they come back in bits over the course of the day. And I think that's sort of guess that's what he's doing is entering that sort of associative world of the dream and teasing these parts back, putting them all back together. >> Nice answers form both of you. Dave I'm going to save you for the next one and I'm going to ask Ray a question about this generally. And then thank Ray for sitting in the seat and ask Marcy to come up. If Marcy's really okay with that. No, you prefer not? Okay, well we'll I think Beth from Chicago should, no. Nobody wants to do it. All right, Andrea who's already got a PhD will do it if you're good with that. Ray, there must be a time in this course where you. Finally, got home from work and you sat down in front of your computer. And you did your homework. And you thought, this poem, this is really BS. Has there been a moment? And if so, let's talk about it. Those moments have occurred [LAUGH]. Those moments have occurred but those moments have not occurred. Well, there was one particular poem >> Do you remember when- [CROSSTALK] No, it's all right. >> The idea is about having the dream and about the dream having power. And the thing that I thought about, and everybody knows about the Martin Luther King I have a dream Speech sequence, but what a lot of people don't know is that that sequence wasn't a part of the original written speech. But he had had that discussion or urban legend has it that he had had that discussion with Mahalia Jackson, who bankrolled his movement as a gospel singer. And they had talked about a dream. And then, as he was giving the speech, Mahalia Jackson said, Martin tell them about the dream and he kind of pushed her away and she said again, Martin- >> She's behind him? >> She's behind him on the stage. >> Yeah, that's right she was behind, because she had sung a song. >> That's right, that's right. So she said the second time, Martin Tell them about the dream. And he left the text and he went on this riff, this poetic riff about a dream. It was poetry. In some respects, the whole speech was poetry. But the dream sequence was a poem within a poem that actually laid out the parameters for. The way he perhaps thought the world should be in the future. >> Right. And there were many many many people, thousands of people who not necessarily because they didn't recognize the truth of the movement, but because they didn't like this particular guys. Maybe demagogic approach or whatever, who probably called that bullshit. >> Mm-hm, they probably called it bullshit. >> Right, I'm sure they did as a matter of fact, because he was doing this series of parallelisms about things that he dreamt. And the only thing that connected them together, because they're paratactic, is that they were dreamt by him. And so, you needed his subjectivity in order to tie them together. So really, it was about him but it was about a common dream. You're really good at this. >> [LAUGH]