I wonder if it might be nice for you to share a case example. >> One is a, he was a client in his 40's and he was in the process of change. he was in a particular process of change that he was finding difficult. And he was moving from a position of wanting to please everyone, trying to move towards a place where he could express himself more freely and disagree with people. And express his point of view and not feeling that might be objectionable to someone just because he expressed a point of view. And this particular client, I got them permission to record a session and there's a particular environment in it that I've focussed in on. In writing I've been doing recently and also some presentations I've done some years ago, where he started talking about old me and new me. So, the old me was the one who was concerned that if he disagreed with someone our relationship might crumble to pieces. It might be catastrophic if he disagreed with someone. The new me was someone who was much more robust in their relationships, understanding that if he were to express himself freely that our relationship could be enriched by that. It is interesting as I was saying that you sat up more straight. >> Yeah, I felt that. Yeah. [LAUGH] >> That you yourself were expressing that more an upright strong way of facing the world. >> Yeah. >> It's why the stuff's so beautiful. It just happens. We relate to the world through our bodies. And when you talk about old me the pitch plot. So, the, as well as spectrographs, you can create pitch plots, and they're a close cousin to spectrographs. And the pitch plot for the old me was quite droopy and fairly flat, and not much activity at all. And he started talking about new me, the pitch plot started moving up and down much more and there's much more vitality in it. >> Yeah. >> And that was a lovely expression of, not just that moment in time, but his developing on that aspect of himself that had those qualities of far greater vitality. And being far more willing to move into space just as his voice was doing. It was taking up more space as he talked and from memory also his body took up more space as he, as his voice did. And so, what as a therapist, what I can do is that I can comment upon it. Help in a way that doesn't make him self-conscious of it. Do you notice the way that you have physically embodied this new way of being as you just did in that second. >> Yeah. >> And in that body sense and he almost enjoying a bit on the work of using Gamblin who's written on focusing. So that felt sense of his body, can he use that as a way to remember what it's like to be in the world like that. So can he remember that sense of what it feels like to sit more upright? To use his voice in a way that penetrates the world more forcefully and if he starts to forget what it's like, can he remember back to the felt sense of it and reconnect with it. And then that embodied reality would then start to express itself in the way he acts in the world. >> That's so beautiful. And I'm thinking also another one of the units that we are covering is how music might reflect the psyche. And the difference between these two perspectives is that in a psychoanalytic perspective it roots back to history to uncover, which I'm sure you've got no problem with. But what you're focusing on is present moments. >> I do [CROSSTALK]. >> Yeah, so it's really nice to emphasise the difference between those two ways of understanding music and musicality. One which is a reflection of that which is deeply located in history, and one which doesn't deny that but actually focuses on the now. And how being in the present is a powerful way to work towards change and particularly in strengthening relationships. >> And to reckon Daniel Stern again, he's brought present moment in psychotherapy in everyday life, it's a point it keeps returning to. But the present is a very, very rich moment that encapsulates more than we could possibly imagine. And he talks about an exercise he does with people sometimes, he talks with your, get them to talk about their breakfast. Do you know this? >> No. >> Okay, so he gets people to talk through their experience of when they were conscious having breakfast. And there will be bits of breakfast you probably won't remember, and somehow the butter emerged on the kitchen table, but you can't quite remember how it got there. You know you must of got it from the fridge but you really can't remember doing it. But maybe you remember it when you open up the butter and the butter's a bit soft and you think, maybe the fridge isn't working very well. Happened to me at the moment because my fridge hasn't been working very well. >> [LAUGH] >> And so and then I'll have a response to that butter being soft. It might be, it might be a tiny bit of outrage, how dare the fridge let me down, but surely the world supports me in everything I do, I've been let down by this. That might this last for two seconds, and he gets people to tell the story of their breakfast again and again and again, they go over the same events. They retell it, and then he starts ref-ing it. And he with the person they start graphing the length of present moment experiences which he says is something around 3, 5, 6 seconds. So the present moment has a duration. Otherwise the present moment is endlessly irreducible. So it's something you could never capture because it's most of the time almost. So the present moment as lived experience, which he uses the Greek term Chyros. It's something that's flowing from the past, into the future. And it lasts for a certain duration, you have an experience in the present. And he'll get people to draw their vitality contours over that. So it might be a contour of how dare the fridge let me down and then it goes away again. [LAUGH] >> And there might be various emotions that are expressed through time like that, through the duration of having breakfast. And he says in those little moments you get people reenacting their world views. And so it might be I had this belief or outrage that something should let me down. Yet if I look at it again, well, why shouldn't the fridge malfunction? Why should it keep going forever? Who am I to think that my fridge was better than anyone else's? And who am I to believe that I can eat as much butter as I like and never put on any weight? So these beliefs that we hold start to get enacted in the every day present moments of our life. And through something as banal as breakfast, we can start to notice the approaches we have to life and maybe unpack them somewhat. And revisit them and refine them if we find they're not as helpful and supporting as we might like them to be. So that's a long way of saying that the present moment captures a person's history. And you don't necessarily have to revisit the past to capture it, because it's happening right now. >> And certainly it means that you're not trapped in history either. That that's deeply relevant, that you can re-experience yourself in the now, and not be reduced to what was. >> And through doing that we can start to drill down further into it. And, continue the work that might have stopped many years ago perhaps. Which to go back to music, you enable the piece to continue. So maybe the piece halted and so that big dramatic peak moment in the work suddenly stopped. And it might of stopped 10, 20, 30 years ago and so how do you enable the piece to continue on so as not to go back to some pre-existing state of mental health or sanity or whatever you want to call it. Is to continue the journey so that the peace may continue and you can keep living and building on your past experiences, just as a piece of music builds on its past experience, on its past expressions. >> I can really hear in everything that you say the way that you see interaction between people in an inherently musical way, just as a child and a parent encounter one another in this gooing and gaaing and sticking out tongues. So naturally, as a way of moving through time and how that changes. And I can hear how you'll be sitting with people and you're able to hear them expressing their narrative across time. And the ways that you're both bringing their awareness to how they're doing that through their musical gestures whilst also being really present to the potentials that it holds for the new melody to emerge. I think that's a beautiful way of both how you explain it and how you theorised about it. It's just been wonderful to hear you talking about it. I'd like to take the opportunity to say thank you. >> Thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to talk about it. >> [LAUGH].
