Can you tell us why it is valuable to project your inner material on to this wide array of instruments? And what is actually the value, how does that help us to improve our mental health? >> Let's say that you have difficulties Let's say you had some kind of past trauma that creates some anxiety every time you are in a certain situation, or panic attack. And you don't really know why they're coming, but you get very, very anxious, and you start breathing fast, etc. So sometimes an instrument can help you to identify if you play this instrument and listen to the music that is sounding as if you had a panic attack. Sometimes you can identify what emotions this panic attack has on the line. Could it be be anxiety, could it even be anger? Or what is this emotional underlying content that is being symbolically represented by the instrument? And it's a different way of learning to listen to yourself and your inner sounds. The instrument clarifies emotional expression, and clarifies what kind of underlying emotions different conflicts are representing. Or maybe you have trouble setting boundaries and, or saying no. So, maybe a drum can help you [SOUND] to be okay about making a loud sound, and say, no. Or you can sing or say at the same time as you're playing the instrument, I [SOUND] don't [SOUND] want to [SOUND] do [SOUND] that [SOUND]. And it could be maybe difficult to say it without the instrument but now the instrument is a reinforcer of the sound and a reinforcer of the powerfulness of the emotion. So that maybe next time when you're put in a situation where you feel you have to say, no but I can't, then you practiced with a music therapist and now it's for that reason easier to say no. >> Yeah. And it sounds to me- >> Wait. It could also be the opposite way, that some people, they have trouble taking in or listening peacefully and quiet to somebody saying something to them. So if you work with a person on playing an instrument very slowly and listen and be patient to what that instrument is saying. Maybe it might be easier to be patient in the new situation and slowing down the tempo and taking in. So it helps you to take in, because it opens up your listening ability not only to listening to yourself. But its practicing basically listening skills to external sounds too. So because the instruments are connected to listening, at the same time as senses, touch. It helps you to connect topics, themes, issues. To what we need to figure out or connect or touch that we're afraid of. >> Well, let me just clarify one thing, then. >> Yeah. >> So that's a gorgeous explanation of the instruments and the role of the instruments. And although you're not saying so, because we have to focus, what you're talking about some Freudian concepts about projection. But tell me, it sounds as though it's very important to have the therapist as a part of that form of expression, particularly if there is trauma in the past. That it's not just about being able to express using the instruments with their varied timbres. But how critical it is for that to be contained within the safety of the therapist-client relationship, when there are serious issues from the past that are being dealt with. Is that right? >> Yeah. Let me say I look at the role of the music therapist as something that Mary Priestly, another music therapist, has talked about as a resonator tool, meaning the music therapist is an instrument that the client can play on. Again, meaning, I take in the music, the way the person is speaking, the way the person is feeling. I absorb it in my body, and I empathise with it. And I can either just be there to listen and be with it or I can actually express it. What it is that I'm feeling that the client might not actually be aware of. They might not be aware that they're tremendously angry. And so I can choose, as an intervention, to play back their unconscious. It's coming to me in a form that we call counter-transference, which is the unconscious emotion. It is being brought up in me and it's related to the client's transference, their unconscious emotions. And so I can actually choose either to contain and hold their emotions. Or can choose to introduce it in sound where it might be less challenging or less difficult to receive when it's somebody else who shows the anger or it can be easier for the person to hear and see it. The other thing that is the importance of having another person there that's trained in therapeutic presence, is the witnessing. >> Mm-hm. >> Even if you don't do anything. If you just come in the room, your presence will be felt. And if you're an open person, as a music therapist, it will help the client to open up and feel that they can trust, that this is the place where I can deposit some things in a safe environment, And I can leave stuff here.