So in your memoir, you focus a lot on group strategy in the modern civil right movements as, and I quote you, picking the location for the movement, and going to jail, to name a few. So what knowledge do we gain by attending the various strategies employed in the Civil Rights movement? >> The action that we take has multiple purposes. Like, for example, the going to jail, which is a form of civil disobedience, not only confronts the system and challenges that system. But it helps the individuals who are challenging the system to also strengthen their resolve. If you're willing to give up your freedom of movement in order to create a movement, then it shows that your level of commitment to be beyond ordinary. Some people support the movement, by simply carrying a sign or making a contribution financially, and we need that. If you're going to succeed in a movement, you've got to find those who are willing to give financial support. Then, you've got to find those who are willing to put their bodies in the movement. So when you have that kind of strategy it has multiple purposes. When you commit civil disobedience and you're in jail, you then attract others. And that's why we had such a large number of people participating. Because when they saw the model and example of others, it gave them the impetus to say yes, I want to be a part of that action. >> Right, right. >> I want to put my body in the movement as well. >> And I recall in one of our conversations, where in Nashville especially, other people joined you, other college aged students and adults joined you and went to jail. But they had not had the training, so it was an opportunity for you and your group to train them. So it was one thing to take the momentum. It was another thing to take an opportunity to learn how to be an effective non-violent participant. >> Yes, absolutely. There's a film called The Nashville movement, and Jim Lawson is training us in that church there, in Nashville. There's one story he starts to tell. And the film doesn't include all of it. And it had to do with a man who was working at the, I think it was the coal mines there in Birmingham, yes. And his name was Charles Billups. And he would demonstrate during the day, he was a minister. And then he would go to work at night. And some of those fellow workers recognized him in the demonstrations during the day, and there were newspaper photographs and that sort of thing. So they decided they were gonna get him that night. And when he showed up at work they were prepared. So they knocked him in the head and put him in the back of a car, and there were about maybe four cars, maybe a truck, maybe, along with them, they went down the river road in rural areas of Birmingham. And they beat him up and they put a rope around his neck and they had him under a tree. And they threw this rope on top of the limb of the tree to hang him, and this older fellow who was there had him on his knees, and told him to say his last prayer. So Charles Billups began to pray. Reverend Billups, he worked with SCLC eventually, and he started praying for the, his children, because he had about five children. He asked the Lord to take care of his children. And make sure that they had food and clothing, and his wife, and that they had opportunity to go to school, since he wasn't going to be there to be the father. He was praying that God would take care of them. And then he went on and started praying for those who are around him, and he said, may their children never go hungry, and may they always have clothing and shoes and that sort of thing. And so one of the fellas says, listen, stop praying like that. We don't, we're not gonna stay here and listen to him, you know, pray like that. Cuz he was praying for them. >> Right, right. >> So the older man, who was perhaps more grounded in his faith said no, this is his last prayer. Let him pray it the way he wants to. And they got into a quarrel, in an argument, a disagreement, and the young fellows who didn't want to sit around and listen, they said, well if you want to stay here, okay, and listen to this prayer, then that's up to you. But he threw the rope that was in the tree on the ground. Say, I'm not gonna stay here and listen to that. So he happened to have been the driver of one of the cars. Those who went in the car with him, they all got together and they turned around and left. And so did another car with some of the young. So the older man standing there decided he would just abandon the idea of killing him. In the meantime, there was a white woman on whose property they were, there next to the river, and she had seen the headlights of the cars, and she had gotten her rifle, a shotgun, and start making her way down there. They had gone by the time she had got there, but Billups was there with his hands tied behind his back, and his head just bloodied. And so she said I knew that somebody was up to no good. And she released him, let his, the ropes around his arms and stuff and he staggered on to the streets and that's how he was saved. So in non-violence, one of the things that you always keep in mind is that people have conscience. And when you show love and concern for them, even when they are showing the worst kind of hate, ultimately, love has the potential to prevail. >> That's a very powerful story. And I think our participants really will take something from that. Because, again, that commitment to the outcome, and even in that kinda scenario, is very powerful for us to share in.
