When you were forced to do something that was not part of the plan, you were flexible. In talking about Reverend Billups who was on the verge of being killed, he stayed focused and he maintained his humility, his compassion even in that dyer situation. It's interesting, because I think unless you are trained to respond to these different circumstances. And it's unclear how you will respond unless you have, in some ways, a script, in some ways, objectives beyond that particular moment. >> Yes. >> It's very interesting when I'm listening to you tell these stories, and able to tie some of this together. What do you say to that, to students who want to talk about leadership? Do you tell them that you have to study others, you have to understand these concepts? Because when something does happen, you can't think about it. You have to respond. >> Yes, and see that's why the training has to do with conditioning your way of thinking. Not just simply putting your body in motion and protesting and confronting but, you've got to realize that the goal you're trying to reach is to win that person over. So, therefore, the approach that you use has to be consistent with that goal. That's the thing you have to always reexamine in terms of your own decision to take action. Is this action going to, fulfill the purpose I'm trying to reach? For example, when I was in Selma, Alabama, I was confronted with a situation where Jim Clark, when I first arrived. And I was aware that people were afraid of him, because he had a terrible reputation. In fact, many of those sheriffs around rural Alabama had that. We had a sheriff in Lummie Jenkins in Wilcox County, he went to, and that's another place where we had a voter registration drive, Wilcox County is in Alabama and Gee's Bend is in Wilcox County. People have heard of that, Camden Alabama. Okay, that's all in Wilcox County. And Lummie Jenkins went to a house and was looking for a suspect and the woman there, it was her son, and she was in a wheelchair. And he asked her, where was her son? And she didn't respond. Now he continued to ask her, and she didn't respond. So he starts slapping her. She still didn't say anything. He slapped her over and over with such force, until she had a heart attack and died. What he didn't know is the woman had had a stroke and she couldn't speak. So she couldn't answer him. You have these kind of situations where there was total disregard for human beings. It was with Jim Clark. They had the same kinda situation. When I arrived in Selma, Alabama, I went to the sheriff's office. I knocked on the counter. I told the secretary I wanted to meet Jim Clark, I wanted to see him. So, she went back and came back, and came back [COUGH] said he wants to know who wants to see him. I said tell him Reverend Lafayette. He came swagging out, his hat cocked and everything, I asked him, greeted him, how was he doing, that kind of thing, etcetera. It was a cordial, professional visit. I wanted to introduce myself, I said. I'm here as Director of the Voter Registration Project. And I wanted to give you my home phone number in case if anything came up, you'd know how to get in touch with me. All right? Then I asked him for his home number so I'd be able to reach him after hours. And [LAUGH] he was stunned, and I was very serious about the whole thing. >> I'm stunned. >> Professional call. [LAUGH] >> Yes. Well yeah. So he looked around at the ceiling and the floor and the walls and he finally looked at me and said well this will be the best place to reach me. Well, see there was a holding cell in the county courthouse but the jail was over at the city jail. Apparently he slept there at night in a holding cell. Yes, and I was a little chagrined by his not giving me his home number. But I found out later that you know wife had put him out. >> That's what I was gonna ask. >> Yes. [LAUGH] He was being very honest and open too, about the fact that's the best place to reach him. >> That's interesting. >> Yeah. So we knew each other from day one. Because, you see if people expect you to be afraid of them, then they're going to act in a way to reinforce that fear. >> Right. >> But it was disarming to him for me to come. All right? Now at one time they did arrest a student cause I would assign these high school students to go and observe on the days when the people were registering to vote. So, we could count the number of people who attempted to vote. Cause we're trying to establish a pattern, and see how that would work. Okay? And so what happened was that while they were standing in the hallway of the courthouse, the sheriff came by, down the hall, and started chasing him out. And he grabbed one of the fellas, Boise Reese. And Boise was the first person arrested in the Selma campaign. And others came running, Alexander Brown and Ronnie, they all ran back to the office, and they were out of breath. They came running to that door, and they had to stretch their arms out to stop, like a plane landing on a ship. They have a big [LAUGH] that's why they came flying in the door. [LAUGH] They stretched their hands out to [CROSSTALK] slow down they were just terrified so, I just stood up very calmly, turned around and said let's go. Say where we going? We’re going back to the courthouse. [LAUGH] For Sheriff Clark? I said no, no. He’s not after you. Okay? We’re after him. >> Right, right. >> [LAUGH] He’s the one that’s in trouble. >> [LAUGH] >> So. I slowly started walking back with him, and Alexander Brown had one foot caught [LAUGH] on the side so in case if he had to run [LAUGH]. >> [LAUGH]. >> So we walked back in there and Alexander stayed at the door, he was about 16, 17 years old. So I walked up and I asked for Jim Clark. I said, where's Boise Reese? He say, he's not here. I say, where did you take him? I was being very firm with him, cause I didn't want them to grab him and beat him up and do all that kind of stuff. >> Right. >> I wanted to let him know there were some eyes watching him. >> Right. >> So, he say well, he's not here. I'll say, well, where is he? I say, because I need to make bond for him. And sure enough, he said that he's over at the city jail. >> Right. >> Because that's what they did, they just held him there, and for interrogation purposes and then they take him over there. I said, thank you very much, and I turned around and walked in. And he said, who you got there with you? [LAUGH] And he saw that, he said, when I turned around. >> He was gone? >> Yeah. [LAUGH] Who is he talking about? I don't see anybody. >> For a reason. >> Yeah. >> I just have a question that's kind of an extension of this one. When you're talking about these different times. As brutal as they were. Very brutal. You also reflect on kind of some of the joy of working with people who have the same vision. How does that make you feel? How does that, how does this moment of reflection feel to you? >> Well it, it reinforces the idea, that change is possible. It's a real feeling of camaraderie when we get together with those who've gone through the common experience. Especially when the suffering that people have gone through. Near death experiences that they had. When we get together, we cannot help but remember those who did not survive who were with us. And we think about the fact [SOUND] that it was a miracle for us to survive those situations. We get here and we can talk about them and share them with each other. As well as, with other people who were interested about the history of our struggle. >> Right. Would you say that your services at this point in your life is an act of love for humanity? >> Oh, yes. We're still working on these things. We have people that we've trained around the world. We trained about 27,000 Nigerians in the Niger Delta area who were fighting the army. And we took them through the training, and the government gave an amnesty program. Cause they had killed troops and stuff like that, etcetera. In the swamps and stuff, that they were very trained there to do that kind of guerilla fighting over the oil spill in Nigeria. One was to continue to fight the government and that sort of thing, and the other is to understand how we can transform those situations, so the government actually paid for the training, and they're now in 24 countries around the world, and learning how to do different trades and stuff like that. So there is a nonviolent alternative to violence, and even in our own country where we have all these people locked up. What they need is another opportunity to be able to learn an alternative to what they were experiencing before, especially all of our young people. I mean that's a lot of energy and a lot of talent, skill. Their lives are gonna be wasted, and either short lived, and they're gonna end up being killed. Okay, or they're unemployed because they have a jail record, and stuff like that. And what we need to do is take what's left of them, and help to restore the best in them. And give them the opportunity to also make their contribution to humanity. >> Right and I think that part, what will be your contribution, that kind of we all have an opportunity to participate. Is part of this larger story is that, yes, we have leaders but in order to have effective leadership, we have to have wonderful followers, people who are committed to making things happen. >> Absolutely and when you have good leadership, people will follow. That's what they are looking for, that's what they're asking for.
