A very good Russian historian by the name of Yuri Slezkine entitled the book The Jewish Century. It is really, when you think about it's a remarkable phenomenon. From beginning of the 19th century or the middle of the 20th century, Jewish achievement in terms of cultural life, science, economic success. This requires an explanation. Now of course, the Russian case, which we are talking about it here, it occurred later. The point is that the culture which the Jews brought with themselves from the pre-modern age suddenly became extremely relevant and enable them for a moment, at least the historical moment, to achieve something extraordinary. Indeed it is very much part of European history, not only Jewish history. It really requires an understanding of what the Jews did and therefore how the Jews were perceived, which really contribute so much for our understanding of what the communist regime was and indeed even more, the success of the Nazi's to persuade people that the Jews represented a worldwide problem. This could make sense only if indeed there was a Jewish achievement. Now in the Russian case. Excuse me, Peter, could you specify what the Jews had that made them so skilled. Indeed, but they brought with themselves from the pre-modern culture, was a male literacy. That is, as you know, a Jewish man was assumed to be able to read the Torah at the time. We had to read Hebrew. We had to read Hebrew. Two, is a remarkable thing is that they were excluded from agriculture. Now, it turns out that it's wonderful to be excluded from agriculture. Because the action in the modern world takes place in the cities, that is Jewish movement to the cities. Jewish demography in the course of the 19th century. First of course in western Europe, but then in Eastern Europe and in Russia at the very end of the 19th century. Jewish movement in the cities is a large scale phenomenon. Third, I would say acquaintance with finances. That is, Jewish bankers, Jewish knowledge of money suddenly became really of concern. Fourthly, I would say lack of national identity. By national identity, I mean, of course there was a Jewish identity, but not belonging to one particular state. What I have in mind is that indeed was no international Jewish conspiracy. On the other hand, one Jew could ask for a loan when other Jew living in a different city, a different state. That all this came to be advantages. Fifth, and this is perhaps paradoxical, having been persecuted. What this means is that we depend on one another, we support one another. Indeed, in the Russian case, it is striking that how the poor Jews were taken care of in their shtetl, a far greater extent than it was done in the various Slavic populations among whom they had to live. Now, it seems to me that we talk about the 19th century Jewish history and culture. This is a phenomenon which we have to explain. That is on the one hand, as I will be saying in a minute, Jews played a major role in the International Socialist Movement way off the proportion to their numbers. At the same time, first in Western Europe, but then at the end of the century, beginning of the 20th century, Jews also played a major role in industrialization. Now, in the Russian case, of course, was different in as much as the opportunities arose much later. Also they varied from place to place. That is, what was possible in Odesa and was possibly in Warsaw, where the Jewish finances and Jewish industry and Jewish industrialist appeared was not possible in the vast ranges of what the Russian Empire was. Again, Peter. Yes. You didn't explain why so many Jews were involved in the International Soviet Revolution. Well, indeed. It seems to me that this makes very good sense, I think several things which made the Jews to play such a major role at one historical moment in the socialist movements, socialist, anarchist, Bolshevik, what have you. First of all, that socialism and Marxism promised the liberation from national oppression. Workers of the world unite. We are being suppressed by the Russian state, what is our hope? Our hope will be to rise above these national identities and we Jews do not really regard ourselves as Russian. Indeed there is very good evidence for example that there was a vast movement of immigration from Eastern Europe including, of course, with the Russian Empire, and a large number of Jews and we are talking about the million and a half or so but also non Russians, Russians also non-Jews, also Russians also came to the United States at this time. The difference was that a large proportion of those Russians who came returned to Russia. We have no evidence of Jews returning to Russia. They did not regard themselves as Russians. I mean, how could they? The Russians did regard them as Russian. But there were Jews who returned from the United States to help build Soviet. Now, we are talking about the Bolshevik age. But this was part of the great number of participants. But we are talking about the 19th century as long as the Russian Empire existed. That very few Jews identified with that state not because of their own choice because the Russians, when I say Russian I mean the Russian Empire I didn't mean in this instant Ukrainians build Russian schools, didn't regard themselves as anything else but the aliens. That's one reason that the Jews were taken to socialism and other and here I am not on firm ground. I think it was part of Jewish culture that we bring light to this world. That we have an obligation, we have an obligation to the less fortunate among us. I'm not quite sure that I could barely support this with arguments but it seems to me that there is a Messianic message and the Messianic message means our obligation to the poor, and that takes us to Marxism that takes us to the. Well it also takes us to Jewish tradition , which is where they learned. Yes, but here we are of course, not on firm ground because you see Christians could rightly argue that Jesus also brought with him a socialist message. But you do remember where he came from? Well, yes I do remember where he came from, even though some of our anti-Semites question that whether Jesus really was a Jew but this would take us away from our topic we want to talk about here. I think there's really nothing surprising about the Jewish participation in any revolutionary movement in the course of the 19th century in the Russian Empire. The Russian Empire perceive them as an alien and hostile entity and the Jews could respond to this, by not identifying with that political entity. Now, why is that the Jews were also disproportionately successful at the 19th century and at the end of the 19th century in the beginning of the 20th century in commercial and industrial life? Again, I think when I mentioned before is relevant here namely, Jews became lawyers, Jews became bankers, Jews became and all of this. Then one more, many of those Jews who had socialists, who as industrialists became successful were rebelling against a very conservative family. This rebellion against conservatism took them into further reaches, into repudiating the world, in which they were not comfortable. These are just suggestions, these are just the contemplation about. Now all this is very relevant to what we're doing here namely history and culture, history and literature because the writers definitely including Bible but also, Mandelstam and other prominent Jews were represented. None of them were reactionary and conservative, none of them wanted to reject the modern world. None of them. Then they were inclined to the left wing of the political spectrum. I think we could make this as a generalization, but no prominent Jewish writer actually ended up in the camp of the reactionaries. But you didn't mention the modern world and that was the big circumstance that made it possible for the Jews to find an arena in which their skills were valuable. That is, of course, the coming of modernity, the coming of industrialization, which occurs in Western Europe in the beginning of that century, and in Russia at the end of the century. Similar phenomenon, much delayed, and the social and political background is very different in as much as in Western Europe. A better educated jury representing a much smaller percentage of the population was far easier not to assimilate, but to, well, to integrate. In the Russian Empire, even at the very end of the life of the Russian Empire, this was much more difficult. But we do have to acknowledge that there were great numbers of Jews who said that modernity is seducing us away from our Jewish culture. Yes. That again, is a major line, it's a major dilemma. With this background, the development of the Russian working classes, by Russian, I mean in the Russian Empire, really I have in mind the Ukraine, and Poland, and Lithuania, the creation of a working class. Jews are the first, well, disproportionately members of this class because they're regular, they're traditional undertakings is small-scale handyman, or in the new industrial age, produces many fewer opportunities. Now there is a development of the Jewish at Jewish Labor Force. This labor force is the first to organize. The form which it took is the Bund, which was established in 1897, which we are talking about only a few tens of thousands of participants. But this became a very interesting and very important institution, a very important and very interesting phenomenon. The Bund. What was the ideology of the Bund? Well, first of all, it was Jewish. By Jewish, I mean that they were not for assimilation. There's a fundamental problem here. On the one hand, it was internationalist, on the other hand, they wanted to retain their Jewish identity. For them, the maintenance of the language of Yiddish was essential. Yiddish as opposed to Hebrew, they were anti-Zionist. From their point of view, going into Palestine was escaping. I should stop you for a moment and say that the Jews all understood that the Yiddish speaking Jews, that Yiddish relied on Hebrew. That it was a fusion language with a Hebrew structure and Slavic and Germanic grammar and words, but the original sources involves a sense of nationality of the Jews to take care of each other. Yes. Be it as it may, Yiddish was very important for the Bund. Yes. That is Jewish autonomy. You see here, there are intellectual political problems here. On the one hand, we are internationalists, but they want to be Jewish internationalists. We want to be with the working classes, with the Russian Empire's working classes, but we also want to maintain an identity. In this, they were like the French who were also internationalists but wanted to maintain their Frenchness? Yes. But the French Jews lived in a French environment. But they were like the French non-Jews who were internationalists but wanted to maintain their Frenchness. Yes. But it's much easier when you want to be maintaining your identity in France when you are French, then you maintain your Jewish identity. The members of the Bund, which was really a remarkable institution. Made up by workers, but also intellectuals joined who were not workers because they were attracted to the idea of the Bund. What was the relation of the Bund with the Russian working class organizations? Well, as I say, at the outset, they made up quite a substantial part of the labor movement but they wanted to maintain their own identity, which ultimately the Bolsheviks were unwilling to accept. Indeed, the break between the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks in '93 occurred precisely over this issue of the independence, but autonomy of the bond, namely, the Bolsheviks achieved majority when the representatives of the Bundesbank walked out, and thereby the Bolsheviks became the Bolsheviks while at that historical moment. What I am saying that in every revolutionary movement, including the present oriented populist movement, which really Jews one would have thought were removed from, but nonetheless it had Jewish participants. In the majority of the socialist movement, namely the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks, and the leadership, the work the Jews were extremely over-represented, both among the Mensheviks and among the Bolsheviks, which would have far-reaching consequences. When you say overrepresented, you're simply doing numerical? I'm doing numerical. But the word overrepresented has an additional element to it and suggest that there is some way in which one can have the right representation. Well, I'm talking about numbers. Jews at the end of the empire made up, let's say, four or 4.5 percentage of the population at the same time. The leadership with the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks movements, they made up, I'm making this up. I have no exact figures, but it's fair to say at least half. I mean, this is something extra ordinary. Well, one could see this as a result of the oppressed minority becoming conscious and the ones who were aware of their oppression. Well, it makes perfectly good sense. At the same time, one cannot emphasize this often enough. Most Bolsheviks were not Jewish, and most Jews were not Bolsheviks. At the same time, if you look at numbers, the Bolshevik leadership, the number of prominent Jewish we're talking about in a moment when I talk about the Civil War, were really extremely prominent and visible. I think you've set the stage properly for understanding that there were many Jews who responded to their situation as Jews who were not citizens of Russia and not citizens of where they were going beginning to be citizens of Western Europe? Yes. Who wanted to have the benefits that citizens had? Yes. What you are saying is relevant in as much as I will be talking about it later, after the collapse of the Russian Empire, and the closing down of the Bund in the Soviet Union. The Bund had an afterlife, especially in Poland, but also in other Eastern European countries, which were extremely important in Jewish life, culturally and otherwise, so the Bund does it afterlife, so to speak. It did in the United States as well. Yes, of course. The Yiddish issue is a huge issue because the Zionists were very small numbers. They said, we have to have all the things that a nation does, which is a country, land of its own, and a language of its own. Yes, but that would be important when they come to the Bolshevik period of Stalin's definition of what is a nation? Yes. I will. But the Jews themselves had already been talking about this. Yes. We have to differentiate between Stalin's definitions and the Jewish self-definition. Because one of the effects of awakening of oppression is that you take the self-definition becomes much more widespread. You mentioned intellectuals, and the Bund in the 1897 was founded. But it already had intellectuals who were writing a history of the Jews as an international people. If I would write the history of the Bund then would be three parts; the pre-history of the Bund, the history of the Bund, and the post-history of the Bund. Because the Bund did not succeed in being a cosmopolitan, landless nationality. Actually, when we talk about who the Jews were, the Bund becomes a very important topic in as much as so many self-defining issues come up with what the Bund was. But according to my values, it was a very admirable entity. Admirable? Yes. But they never got land of their own. Well, as you know what the Bolsheviks said about the Bund is that they are all Zionists, but they are afraid of seasickness.
