[MUSIC] In this interview, we will be looking at different ways in which we look to build relationships with each other in a work place situation. In whatever work place scenario that we're faced with, most of us will be interacting with other people. And, therefore, in most of those situations, the world goes round in a better way if those relationships are more collaborative. And that each of the parties involved look to make those relationships work the best that they can be. In a workplace situation, we're faced with challenges, sometimes conflict. Throughout, however, we need to navigate through. Somehow, we need to successfully work out how we're going to progress through this relationship. So what we're going to do in this interview, is chat with Claire Taylor. And Claire is going to share with us some examples of different workplace relationships that she's experienced, both in the corporate world when Claire worked in marketing and branding, in the consultancy world, which Claire worked in when she left the corporate world. And more recently, when Claire has been working as cofounder of the Story Mill. So, Claire, from your experience, perhaps we'll begin in the corporate world, do you have any examples that you can share with us that you've built relationships that have worked well or perhaps not so well? >> Mm-hm, yes, well, and relationships are the key to everything working smoothly in corporate organizations. And because they have so many people and so sprawling, and have so many different functions, the only way to really manage all of that and make projects work smoothly is to have very strong relationships. I think one of the biggest relationship challenges that I've kind of experienced within the corporate, was between sales and marketing. And I think that's not uncommon. That just seemed to be a challenge across the board. And often the conflict that you have between two functions is, there's a political issue behind it. So with sales and marketing, there's always this question where sales is about now. >> [LAUGH] >> I need it now and I need to do everything now. Marketing is more strategic, it's a little bit more long term, it takes a bit of time. You gotta sort of do it all right and get these right messages and do the research, and come up with the correct positioning and all of this kind of stuff. And there's always this question of, on the marketing side, is it generally good? And on the sales side, is it good for the person that I'm going to have a conversation with tomorrow? Yeah? So when I say generally good, I don't mean kind of good enough. I mean, is does it suit everybody? Even though you'll be targeting and all of that, what marketing is working on is something that is ideally going to kind of work across the board. And what a salesperson is concerned about is, I have a call with Dr. So and so or Mrs. so and so tomorrow. How am I going to handle this situation, and is what I've got fit for purpose? And then they're often shared targets, which mean that well, if the target isn't met, was it because marketing didn't deliver, or was it because sales didn't deliver? Or was it because you have, particularly if you don't have a sales and marketing head at the top, you have two. If you have a sales head and a marketing head, then you often have this well, hold on a second. And the way to get around that, my experience was well, actually, to just work really closely. And I have had the experience early on in my career of not working closely enough within that. And not working closely enough, it doesn't matter what you produce. I think people often feel that it is imposed on them. And when you work really closely, people feel like they are involved, they feel like it is their idea, they feel like they've been part of it, they bring great ideas, they bring their experience. And then what I think is really brilliant is, people who are closely involved with something, take it to their colleagues and say, hi, I was involved with this. It's safe, I know it works. So that was one, which for me was a learning curve, and I think for a lot of people it's a learning curve. Your map of the world when you're in either of those functions is different. And even though I've often seen salespeople come into marketing and they start off by saying, what I'm going to do when I go into marketing is, I'm going to really listen and I'm going to do all of these things that I wish I'd had when I was. But give them 18 months in marketing and their map of the world has changed. It's different and they have different influences, and different pressures, and they're thinking differently. So the only way to sort of create that collaborative relationship and keep it going is to continue engaging with your counterparts in the other function. But not all of them, because it can be really difficult to keep in touch with everybody, but people who are representative of that function. So yeah, that's certainly an experience I had in the corporate world. >> So in the organizational situation that Claire's just explained to us, there was a potentially complex relationship between sales and marketing. Why might that have been? Well, the sales function have an urgency to make sales. And for those of you that have worked, or have read about, or know about the sales environment, that is very much today, target driven short term. Whereas, in the marketing department as Claire's explained to us, perhaps there is a different range of priorities which look at the organization, perhaps, more broadly and probably longer term. And so, you have the potential there for conflict. You have the potential there for two functions not understanding, or recognizing, or respecting what each other does. And as Claire has explained to us, what then becomes really important is to create that situation where you have that mutual understanding. You have that situation that you create, whereby, you actually recognize you're on that same organizational journey,. You might play slightly different roles in it, but actually getting that common ground then becomes pivotal between the sales department recognizing what the marketing department can do to help them and vice versa. So in that way, you've fostered this mutual respect and that mutual understanding. And Claire gave us the example of somebody from the sales department going across to the marketing department and over a period of 18 months, really getting the understanding about what marketing department does and the importance of what it needs to deliver. Which, perhaps, wasn't there not for any reason other than situational before when this individual had just worked in sales. So, there is a number of things that we can take away from this first scenario. And that is the importance of building understanding, building mutual respect, building mutual recognition and perhaps sharing wherever you can what each other does as a way of building cognitive relationships. And what might seem at the outset two very different and potentially polarized different functions in an organization. What about, Claire, when you then worked in the consultancy world? Do you have any examples you can share with us about the real importance of collaborative relationship in the consultancy world? >> So a number of years ago I was working for a company. And I was working very closely with one of their regulatory people. >> Mm-hm. >> And the relationship that their marketing function had with her was not good. [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] >> To put it very mildly. >> It wasn't working. >> It really wasn't working at all. And I think it was that there was a lot of conflict and really, I think people were a little bit scared of [LAUGH] of this lady. And the challenge was actually this project needed to be done and she needed to be completely on board with it and it was my job to sort of make sure that this was delivered. I began to sort of understand her a little bit more and actually spend a bit of time with her. Now, initially, she wasn't even open to that. So that can be a challenge that you have, is if you're working with somebody who is really quite closed off, is how do you sort of open them up to start to work with them? And by showing that you actually care about what they care about, and trying to understand what it is that they care about. I think that starts to open a chink which then gradually widens and we ended up having a very, very collaborative relationship. I would take her view, which wasn't a sort of patronizing yes, I'll incorporate your view to keep you happy. It was that actually her view was very, very solid and very important to the the project. Really, really essential to the project. So I would take her views, whereas I think It's easy sometimes when somebody is in a role that seems like a blocking role, like a legal role or a finance role where they get to say no a lot of the time. >> [LAUGH] >> Yeah. And I think those kind of people sometimes in IT as well. Find their roles really hard because they feel they've become the department that says no. And particularly versus the marketing department that's all about accelerating things. I think in every organization, you have departments that are the accelerator and departments that have to have their foot on the brake a little bit to say, well hold on, we need to check some of these things out. And actually you can't drive a car without having both of those working quite nicely. So, but it was actually valuable, so embracing what you can't do and take in more of what you can do. It was a really important part of this. Anyway, we ended up building a relationship, and when we came to launching this particular product, she came to the launch conference. Which she hadn't really done before. And we organize awards for people who'd been very very involved with the project, and we awarded one to her particularly. And there was a particular piece of work that she had done that really made a big, big difference to the way the product could be messaged and sold. So we awarded her for the piece of work that she had done. And it completely changed the relationship from one that was really quite closed and standoffish to one that was very openhearted and respectful. And it was one team and it was shared recognition. And a great feeling to be having that sort of relationship and having that sort of team. >> That situation is really, really interesting because what Claire has demonstrated is, and we may well have all experienced these types of situations or not. But you're most likely to at some point in your working career, when you need to build and really need to build an effective working relationship with someone who is either feared perhaps, or not respected perhaps or nobody knows who they are. Or by choice or circumstance, this other person in the relationship has cut themselves off. So in other words, the relationship has got a very difficult start point on the outset, at least. And Claire has shared with us the challenge that she had at the beginning and how she overcame that. And the ways in which Claire overcame this was by looking for a chink, was the word that Clare used. What is the way in to this person? How can we find some common ground? How can I find out where I can be with this person, to get things started? And as their relationship developed then, what transposed was a real area of common ground. Almost like a transformation in what that relationship could have been, i.e., it didn't work at all. To one, that really blossomed and flourished. So much so, that Claire became of joint mind, almost, with this person, had very similar views. Not because Claire felt that she had to, but actually because she felt that they were really the right ones to have at that moment in time. And with that relationship, then, it ended up with this particular person getting a reward, an award, at the end. And what we've also heard Claire share with us, and perhaps, again, it's something that if you look at your own organization, or organizations that you've learned about or will learn about, that within an organization you'll find enabling forces for a relationship. So, particular parts where you might be working or work with, where actually making relationships is a lot more facilitative than perhaps in other parts. And Claire gave the example of, perhaps, the marketing department, whereas in other parts of an organization, and maybe IT, or finance, where there are different constraints, and perhaps the people in there, they just need, for different reasons, to behave in different ways. And as Claire Kent said, that the departments who like to say no, it's not because they like to say no. It's because their constraints means that, in some circumstances, they have to say no. So if you're in finance department, and yes, you're in that organization where we'd all love to work. There are constraints, there are financial constraints. And if you're an IT department, well, no, you can't actually meet all of the IT requirements of everybody at the same time. Why? Because you need to prioritize. So what we can take from this particular scenario is that in almost every situation, there is a way in to make a relationship work. We just need to work hard to find out what that is. And also, in an organizational situation, there'll be parts of that organization where Perhaps it is easier to be collaborative. And the environment is one where being collaborative is just more of the way things are done. And in other parts, due to particular constraints or resource restrictions, perhaps, maybe it's not quite so straightforward. So we're now going to chat with Claire about where she is now with the StoryMill. And to see how examples of relationship building have helped Claire on this particular part of her journey. >> So with this there are two areas. So one is in a relationship with a client, with somebody that we're potentially going to do a project with. And one of the things that I've learned, I guess with the StoryMill is sometimes you're asked to do a piece of work, or potentially to do a piece of work, and you actually say no. >> Right. >> Now most of the time, obviously, you want to be saying yes, and that's great, and that's wonderful, and that's really wonderful when that happens. And sometimes the common ground you have and where you can see that you can add value is apparent to you straightaway, and the whole feel of the relationship is a good one. You actually think, we could do some really great work together. >> There's that connectivity. >> That's right, there is that. And yet there are times though, when it just doesn't have that. It doesn't feel like that and you've got to say, this isn't for me. I'm not the right person to help you. Or just the whole feel of this doesn't feel like the kind of relationship that we want to be building, so that- >> So is that on instinct or is more than that? >> I guess it's on experience, but also there are often things that are happening in that where it doesn't feel respectful. It doesn't feel, yeah, it doesn't feel as though people are necessarily respecting your time. Or they're wanting too much done for nothing early on in order for you to sort of prove yourself to them. And the balance of power in that kind of relationship can get very, very funny if you persist with it. And I think you can find yourself very, very much on the back foot. Even pricing things, you have to say that this is what we do. This is our pricing. This is how it works. If you want something else, then this isn't going to work for us. So I think often there are specific things like the amount of pre-work or can you do this for free? And then there might be the potential for something. Or there can be these kinds of relationships where you need to see pretty quickly that collaboration isn't going to be what's happening. What's going to be happening is that you're going to be on the back foot all the time, kind of hoping that something comes of that relationship. And you learn to spot those very, very quickly, I think, in running your own business. And what you're really looking for is those relationships that straight off you've got common ground again. You've got, it seems like it's very equal to sort of share values. Now when I say equal, that doesn't mean that your organization there is going to be the same size. You can be working, I think, with the biggest organization in the world and you can still have a very equal relationship with the person that you're talking to. It's about respect, it's about do we get each other? It's about are we on the same page here? And that feels really good to work with people like that. You're not in a situation where you feel like you're being bargained down, and you're not in a situation where you feel like you're wanting to overprice, it's fair. There's that kind of thing, which I think comes from experience. And again, it's that relationship feel thing. >> So with this client example, we touch on a number of really, really important points again. First of all, do we always need to say yes? And the answer is that, well, clearly, maybe yes, maybe no. And Claire has shared with us some examples of when we might need to say no. But when we say yes, it's the flip side of when we might say no. So what are the key enablers? Well, mutual respect, mutual understanding, having that connection. So we've got a lot of behavioral, interpersonal factors coming into play. But actually, in Claire's situation, running her own business, there also has to be a quantitative dimension as well for a relationship to work. And that then becomes the price point. And that price point becomes, it could be negotiable. It could be a tipping point, it really does depend. But one of the key areas that Claire explained to us was that actually if you're trying to build a collaborative relationship with a potentially new client and they ask you to do too much for nothing. Or perhaps venturing into an area that you've not been, then maybe that relationship is one that shouldn't go any further. It's an important point in whether you decide to proceed, or whether you decide to stop. So let's look at a different example now from the StoryMill. >> This is the other thing that a lot of consultancies have, is they're collaborating with other people on a project. And this is often another one that's quite tricky. And all sorts of, so the questions come up about the person's skill set, about can we work together? How will that be? All of that. And so it always, yeah, you want to be working with people that you feel you can trust, people that you know well where you know what they're actually going to deliver. It has to be fair for both people. And I had one experience not that long ago actually, where it was somebody contacted us, and asked us for the collaboration. And it was one of these things where I had known this person for a while, and the project that we were going to work on, it was pretty straightforward. And we discussed it, negotiated it, agreed it, in such a short amount of time that really surprised me. So we did this project together for a client and it worked really, really well, and that was it. It was simple, it was just perfect. And yet I've seen sometimes these kinds of relationships. I haven't so much had experience of it, but these kinds of relationships sometimes not being right, and going wrong. Because I think, The choice of person hasn't been right, perhaps, from the beginning. Or you don't know somebody well enough or what the quality of their work is going to be. So you see people afterwards then complaining about how the relationship was, and think they might not work with that person again. >> So, when you look at these client relationships or other relationships running your own business, you've used words like delivering on time and quality of work, and respect >> Do you feel you actually have to like somebody to work with them on this basis, on a personal level? >> I think you have to respect them. >> Mm-hm. >> You have to respect them. >> And respect what they do and respect what they deliver and respect what they can contribute. >> Yes, yeah. Like is a funny word, because it kind of means different things to different people. >> Sure. >> [LAUGH] I think it really helps if you like them. I think it's really important that you have some kind of chemistry with them. Particularly if you're going to work quite closely together, that connection between the two of you, I think, makes a big difference. So even if you respect them, but you kind of don't click and it's very jarry. >> [LAUGH] >> You can really like somebody, but for some reason it just doesn't flow. >> Mm-hm. >> I think that makes for a really difficult relationship. And it could be that you really respect their work. But on an ego level you're locking horns for some reason or there's something like that happening. I think if that's happening, I think the project is going to be quite tricky to deliver. So I think it needs to be smoothed. >> Mm-hm, mm-hm, well, we've heard throughout this interview a range of different scenarios about how relationships can be built. And we've heard several different circumstances when relationships can work really well. And we've also heard several different examples of where there are risks involved with relationships and the potential for them not quite to go to plan. And it's been really interesting talking with Claire now because we've got the examples from the corporate world, from the consultancy world, and also from the StoryMill world. So thank you very much, Claire. >> Thank you, David. [MUSIC]
