Hey, let's talk about cyber security. That's how you and I became friends. >> Yes. >> We both have a passion for talking about cyber security companies and you always have such an interesting perspective. Is cyber security an awesome or maybe not so awesome place nowadays to be investing money? >> I think cyber security is one of the few industries in this world that will never go away. So you think about concepts of mobile games, VR games. I don't know what's going to happen five years later, ten years later, but cyber security will not go away. >> There'll be bad guys somewhere. >> There will always be bad guys who are really smart. Really smart bad guys, that's always going to come up with newer and smarter ways to make something happen in their wish. And somehow, we're always playing a game of catching up. So if you think about what's really going on in cyber security investing, we basically have a bunch of companies, entrepreneurs, very technical security guys, trying to play the role of catching the bad guys. Except that you don't even know where the bad guys are. You don't know what they're doing. All you see sometimes is they already did something bad, and then you try to figure out what have they done. So we're always playing a game of catching up. And that's why it's going to be an evergreen industry because we will always have the bad people coming up with smarter and smarter ways for us to try to catch them. So it's extremely exciting. At any point in time when you see new technologies, BitCoin, and all these other things going on, there will be new types of crimes that's going after these creations. So there's such a big, I would say, opportunity forever, and it's never going to go away. And the nice part is it's fascinating sometimes when you see what the bad guys are capable of doing. Absolutely fascinating. >> What do you look for when you're talking to a team and you're making an assessment? Is it holistic or a couple things you look for like a visionary founder, amazing timing? Or a team that's done it five times before and this is their sixth time? Is it all of the above or do you have a couple things that really stand out? >> I think it has to be all the above. And the reason for that is because even though there's a huge market demand for security software companies and technologies. In the end, as an investor, you have to think about the concept of uniqueness, differentiation and why is this something that no one else has done or is capable of achieving. Because as an investor, what you're really looking for is unique assets that would have value such that people will buy the software. People will acquire the company. Or people will see value that this company deliver that no one else could. So you're always looking for an angle that's different. Sometimes that angle is the founder. Sometimes it's the technology source code, some type of new approach. And the nice thing of being an investor is you can get to see many types of companies using many different approaches, sometimes chasing after the same problem. because there, then you have to evaluate which one is the more effective one versus less effective. >> One of the things I know you and I have talked about is just the ability to sell. Like there's so many companies, and we talked about them, where there's great team, great technology, but they don't sell. There's no revenue and they're not burning through cash, and it's like, well, what are you selling? And it's almost like the sales culture is sometimes a very different kind of culture than the kind of things that's required to generate excitement and investment. Selling is hard, right? >> Absolutely. >> Selling is blue collar type. Got working funnels and do you you see that? Do you see these exciting companies, and when it comes down to, what have you sold, it becomes a little bit of a different story? And I'll bet there are reverse ones. >> Yep. >> Maybe not so exciting in their sales engines. >> So, I would say so far, if you look back at the successful companies that either got acquired or went public, there's always this very similar characteristic you can find in a management team. Maybe it's not a salesperson, but maybe it's the CEO, maybe it's the CTO. But whomever is at the top level of these companies, they will usually have a very strong idea of selling. And selling is one of those things that sometimes can make or break a company, right? With the right talent, if you could sell anything. And the reason I say, sell anything is important is aside from selling your software to a customer, you have to sell it to investors. You have to sell it to your partners why they should work for you. Your employees, why they should stay and not go somewhere else. You also have to sell, unfortunately, to everyone that asks you about the business, questions you and challenges you about the business. And every day, to a certain extent, we're off selling. And so, if you have a good sales skill, you will be able to convince people why this is better, even though it might not actually be better, and that's what's important. >> Dare I say, that maybe that's if there is a secret sauce, do you think that's it? That somewhere in that company, there had better be somebody who can generate revenue. Because without it, it's like being a living thing with no air, right? There has to be the ability to sell. >> Yep. >> That's being my observation. >> I think that's probably the number one thing that we have to look for. Because if a company manager cannot sell me why I should be investing in that company, how could I believe that he could sell to anyone else that the software that they're building is valuable? >> I'm going to guess there's at least 1,000 people who've just decided they want to do this for a living. >> [LAUGH] >> It's such interesting work. It's cerebral, but it's also exciting and it's different. I'm so happy that you were able to come in and share a little bit of your life. >> Thank you so much for inviting me. >> Yes, nice to see you. We're both in New York, so easy to come over and I'm glad you made some time. >> Thank you. >> And we will see you next time.