[MUSIC] Welcome back to Representing the Professional Athlete. It's my privilege to welcome Professor and Dean, Dale Sheptak from Lake Erie College. Thanks for being with us Dale. And welcome back to Ricky Volante, our research and teaching assistant for this course. We're thrilled to be with you today. We're going to go through a PowerPoint which we'll make available to you on agent regulations across the wonderful world of a number of sports including America's three major sport's plus soccer football in which Ricky and Professor Sheptak are experts. We'll start with agent regulations. How does an agent protect the long-term interests of his players? We're starting to look at league and union limits in the United States. Ricky, you have this PowerPoint telling us MLBPA, the Players Association for MLB, has no limit. There is a self-imposed 5% rate limit, though, for US and Puerto Rican based players. You've played a lot of baseball yourself. Does that make sense to you? Is that a fair deal? >> Yes, I would say for the amount of time that an MLB agent has to wait for those revenues to come in because typically you don't get commissions when they're in the minors that having slightly above average rate in comparison to the other leagues that that would be fair. >> It's fair and of course the guaranteed monies, we looked at that in baseball, like in no other sport, the Clayton Kershaws of the world, that's all guaranteed monies. So that rate would obviously come down for a Casey or a Scott Boras. The bigger the volume, the lower the percentage and that's a negotiated percentage. In the NFL, a Players Association the commissions for people like Tom Condon is limited to no more than 3%. But the big agencies now like CAA, Tom used to be with us at IMG Football, they're cutting it back to a lower commission that weeds out the weaker agents. >> Right, and the NFLPA itself is in discussions to potentially limit that rate as well so that they can start to weed out the field of agents because it's right now so hyper competitive and overfilled. >> The Player's Association for the NBA Players Association limits commissions to no more than 4%. Same principle applies, we're saying across the three major leagues before we get to soccer football, this is sort of the bid and asked. But the best agents, the Jeff Schwartz's of the world who's going to appear Again with us on this Coursera MOOC. When he gets a Blake Griffin, when he gets a Kevin Love, he's not going to be charging 4% for his onfield, on court contract. We're putting endorsements and off-field endeavors to the side. >> Right, because where they're really going to make their money with a player like Blake Griffin is with the off-field endorsements where they'll get typically 10 to 15%. >> All right now the limitations on commission rates is our next and what sorts of regulations do we have? Well, you have to have register in the NBA, MLB and NFL. You have to pass a background check, take a certification exam, all these things, education requirements. MLB and NBA undergraduate degree, NFL undergraduate and post graduate degree, Masters or a law degree. And you have to register in each state and there are athlete agent laws. We talk about that throughout our modules. If you don't register, you can be caught up on criminal charges, Ricky. So, as you looked at this before we involved Dale with soccer football, at this level, now MLB requires a certification exam to be a player representative as well. This ratcheting up, it's meant to fair it out, the bad actors, the Tank Blacks of the world so to speak. >> Right, at the end of the day what each of the Players Associations and leagues are trying to do here is protect their players long term and ensure that they're not caught up with an agent who might be unsavory or not looking out for the players best interest. >> We next go to qualifications and certifications as we say there are rules and regulations both from the league and from the union. You must abide by the duty of fairness and loyalty throughout, and you must disclose it, we go through this in the representation agreement, any conflict of interest at any point in time or else you can be decertified and or sued for the equivalent of malpractice. And we do cover that in some length. Now we're going to turn to soccer football. And Dale, you're an expert in this area, Professor Sheptak. So let's take us through the four stages of a professional athlete's career for a soccer football player. When would he first need representation meaningfully in the course of his career? >> It's going to be pretty late in their development stage, when they're making the first team of which, especially using England as a model. When they make the first team when they're actually playing in front of the big crowds and the first contract is then put in front of them to be a permanent member of that first team. >> Okay and what sort of registration requirements, we have some recommendations but what sort of certification requirements and or regulations are imposed by FIFPro or otherwise? >> At the moment, we're in a middle of a transition phase with whether or not people are FIFA agents, whether or not they are agents of the FA or whatever the case might be. So at present, there is no real registration process. There is no background check. There is no educational requirement. Essentially, you just have to send a letter of notice to the football association in the country that you want to represent players and say, hey, I'm going to start representing players here. >> Yeah. And Professor Sheptak, Dale we were talking in our preparatory session about there is this duty of fairness and loyalty cutting across the entire world of sports, no matter where you are. Whether it be England or otherwise. What sorts of anecdotal not so happy endings have there been recently with agents not disclosing a conflict or not satisfying the duty of fairness and loyalty to their clients? >> I don't think it's so much fairness and loyalty as it is lack of preparation professionally on the part of the people that are actually representing the athletes. Within the world of soccer worldwide, you see a lot of people being represented by their dad, their best friend from high school who just need to jump on the coattails, cousins, whatever the case may be. >> The posse in the NBA. >> Essentially, and so you have people that might not understand the international world of business. They might not understand tax law. They might not understand how to truly represent the best interest of that player beyond the dollars and cents, pounds and pennies whatever the case might be depending on what country they're in. So the lack of regulation really leads to a lack of fairness in the long term representation of the athlete themselves. >> Can you share with us some of the Lionel Messi example that we're talking about. >> Absolutely. Represented by his father. All you need to do is look at world sport news and you'll see the tax cases that are being brought against Lionel Messi in Spain. >> And that's been ongoing for a number of years. And I would argue that in a system of professionally, qualified and prepared athlete representatives, the system would be in place within the representative company, firm whatever it might be they would take care of those tax issues, and they wouldn't be overlooked. >> What other agent, let's call them failure of the fiduciary duty to represent the client to the best of the client's interests. What other corruption scandals and/or failure to satisfy that fiduciary duty in the world of professional soccer can we talk about for our audience? >> Right, well there's a number of other tax fraud issues, Namar being another key player, I mean these are two of arguably the top five best players in the world. They're represented by family members and- >> Playing on the same team? >> Playing on the same team. >> There's a conflict for you. [LAUGH] >> And now you have the issue of are they really focusing on the field? I mean one would argue with their talent and abilities and results that yeah they are still focusing on the field, but still when you have implications of Tax fraud, potentially jail time, very, very sizeable fines. You have to imagine that that affects the player and their ability and their preparation to some extent. It also affects them on the level of endorsements. Do you really want to get involved as an endorser of a player who's currently being investigated by the Spanish government or the Brazilian government? So they're potentially cutting off other revenue streams by having looked over, ignored or maybe outright just broken the laws, the Asians that is. And that's, again, going back to are you really being loyal and fair to your client, which is a good question. I mean other issues with, again, the lack of regulation of agents and the lack of educational requirements. Potentially you have people that walk into the room with these major clubs that aren't necessarily prepared to do what it takes to represent them appropriately. >> Let's let Professor weigh in, because you've studied this. You've done studies, you just gave a presentation on the pre-professional aspect, and not to interrupt, but we're talking about the four stages of professional, pre-professional, professional athletes career. So these academies, how many kids really, from the age you were saying, 11 or 12, they're identified as possible pre-professional talent. I mean, and we looked in baseball at the Basconi's down at the Dominican Republican who prey on these kids. >> Right. >> And sort of take 50% of their first contract. What sorts of advice would you give even to a family? When do they need an agent? And who is the best agent for that kid and how many of the kids in all these academy programs are ultimately going to make a living at their sport? >> I think you need an agent when the kid's ready to take that next step >> Okay. >> When the actual opportunity to become a professional athlete, to go from that amateur status to that professional status. For me, the key part is, in the development of that kid, are they getting the training to get them to that next level and that's their focus? Or is their focus with the involvement of an outside party being at that next level? And the difference is, getting better versus thinking you're getting better or having that goal. And I think in that pre-professional, one of the things we spoke about before we started filming was, why don't we have as many, where are the shortfalls in the development of the American soccer player? >> Right, exactly. >> And we've kind of tied it to baseball a little bit. Part of it is we said kids aren't playing baseball in the street anymore. Kids don't play soccer on the street. Excuse me, and you can make the same argument in the more developed welfare countries of Europe, that kids aren't playing soccer on the street anymore. And when they get into these club systems, when they start playing in these developmental systems, the focus isn't on the fundamentals of the game. So by the time they get to that next step they don't have the fundamentals developed. So the involvement of that outside party at too early an age, from my standpoint, takes away from the focus on what's important for that individual to have the best development and have a longer, more fruitful career. >> Right. >> Because they have the fundamentals and they've mastered the game. For a lack of a better way of putting it. Just as an anecdote, and people in soccer love to talk about the Barcelona Youth Academy. >> There you go. >> The Barcelona Youth Academy don't focus on winning. >> Yes. >> Until they're 14. >> There you go. >> Everything is about fundamentals, but then people sit there when they're 25 and they're playing for the first team at Barcelona and winning everything, we say how can they do that with a ball? Well because that's what they focused on for the first five, six years of their development and winning games didn't matter. [CROSSTALK] That is brilliant at purveying on a kid. We talk about pre professionality agents intruding too soon in the process. That's really another, I think best practice that we want to share with our audience. How important it is to talk about the four stages of the athlete's career, just at the right time, just at the right place, just with the right team. And to extend this output only a little bit, [COUGH] as an agent, the fiduciary duty of an agent obviously is to maximize the investment that the student athlete or the pre- professional athlete has made in his or her career. [COUGH] But let's go through [COUGH] that example that we talked about professor where now all of a sudden we're talking about an Algerian player on your home tea Leicester and you're agenting for that player. Now we're in to the middle stages of that professional soccer player's career and what's the best advice you can or should give an athlete? And you can name his name, and our audience will recognize it. >> Okay. His name is. Played for Lester City, he's an Algerian national. And he's come out of nowhere this year, and all of a sudden just actually this morning, in the papers in the UK. They're reporting that the big four clubs especially Manchester United are interested in signing him and the January [COUGH] excuse me, signing and transfer window. As his agent what's the best advice for him? Does he go to Manchester United and or Chelsea or Manchester City, whatever the case might be, or go overseas to Rio, Madrid or Barcelona. And have the risk of sitting on the bench behind some of the world's greatest players, or do you advise that player to stay? And I think part of the agents, the agent's caught in a dichotomy here, because I think your job from a financial standpoint is to help that player make money while they can, and we all know how short- >> Right. >> The lifespan of a professional athlete can be. You're one injury away from never playing again. So on that side you're stuck in this double-edged sword, this catch-22, if you will. Do they send them for the money and potentially sit on the bench? Or keep them at a mid-table. Well, they're not mid-table today, but they will be by the time this airs. >> [LAUGH] >> And keep them playing. So you are caught between that long term versus short term game. And we have seen time and time and time again in the game. And one of the examples I'll throw out there, too is one of the potentially greatest English strikers that ever lived. His name was Michael Owen, played for Liverpool. He was the wonder boy. And that's actually what they called him. And he went to Rio Madrid. >> Mm-hm. >> Played behind some of the greatest forwards in the world. Never played career, for a better way of putting it. Dwindled. >> Mm-hm. >> Exactly. >> Never quite recovered. >> End of the money stream, end of money stream. >> But he's set up for life. >> Exactly. [CROSSTALK] >> So I think if an agent is taking the short term- >> Right. >> Going after the money. I think it is the responsibility of that agent to make sure that player's set up for life. >> For life. >> So, in the case of Michael Owen, it's a little bit different, he came from money, but he invested in race horses, he's got a nice portfolio, he's set for life. >> Yeah. >> But how many players chase that money [COUGH] and then you just never hear of them again? They end up bankrupt, they end up with nothing, looking for a job whatever the case might be. So to answer your question- >> Yeah, yeah. >> In a short way. I would think that it's the agent's responsibility to make the player, the money while it's there. >> Yes. >> But to set them up. >> Yes. >> [COUGH] >> For long term success in their future. And- >> We have whole modules on incoming protection, life insurance, experts, worldwide experts but let me go back to the one example you were talking about, Dale. About the person who invested in real estate and was set for life and had a good financial advisor, a soccer football professional who nobody had ever heard of. But he's set for life because his financial advisor got him into real estate at the right time in the right way. >> Yeah, again, same team as Is Michael Owen even overlapped with him a little bit in their time there. Robby Fowler was very astute in his investments in real estate was set and had a very solid portfolio as his career ended. Now he played until he was 40, but he had a very nice portfolio that he was able just to move out of the professional game and go onto business after. >> There we go. That's the four phases in the soccer/football world. Thank you very much, we have some recommendations we'll share with you. We're now going to segue over to media and TV rights agreements across America's three major leagues and then we're going to also talk about soccer/football. You'll learn the NFL deal I mean just of the charts 9-year deal media rights 27 billion, MLB, a 8-year deal, 12.4 billion. NBA 930 million through 2015-16 and then it jumps to 24 billion in a 9-year deal. NHL, MLS and the Premier League, [COUGH] let's drill down a little deeper [COUGH] on the American deals and then [COUGH] go to the La Liga and La Liga's TV deal transition. Ricky, what would you have to say about how this compares? And then we're going to come back to average salaries. But how do these moneys flow back through the media rights deals to the defined gross revenue, the best bar related income in America's leagues? And how do they flow through in a Premier League or for a team like La Liga? >> Right, so you have multiple models that go across these sports here. For example, you have the NFL and the NBA, which a large portion of their TV revenue is driven by national agreements. And then there is collective bargaining between the union and the league to distribute those funds. And figure out how those revenues will be shared between the players, the teams, and the league. >> So instead, not to interrupt, but have the union negotiation at the bargaining table what percentage of the pie, the defined gross revenue pie, is going to come back to the players? What's going to go to the owners, the media rights being a big part of that? >> Right, and generally, the players will obviously aim for at least, 50/50 or thereabouts. Depending on how strong of a union they have and how strong of the members of the union as well because as we just saw with the NBA deal. You have players like Carmelo Anthony and LeBron, who I'm sure had influence in driving that huge jump in revenues. And now it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out between the league and those players to how those revenues are going to be distributed. Then you have the MLB, who while there annual average value of their TV deal seems much smaller than the NFL and the NBA. But the MLB is largely driven by local revenue deals, with their own personal networks. The Cleveland Indians being being Fox Sports Ohio. And then at times in some of the situations, owners are even able to own interest in those regional deals. >> The YES Network. >> Yeah, with the Yankees. >> With the Yankees. >> So you're able to drive revenue more locally than from the national level. Then you have the EPL, which right now their annual average value is just a little over 1.7 billion. Now from there they have a formula where you basically three categories of revenue. First, each team gets set amount just for being part of the Premier League. Then depending on how many games you play nationally televised, there's a formula to determine, based on the number games, you get X amount. And then finally, depending on where you finish in the table, starting with the most at top working down to the bottom. You add those three numbers together and there's how much you get for the year from your TV and media rights. Now La Liga, up until 2016, has always been able to, each club has been able to go out and get their own TV deal and media rights deal. So you had clubs Like Real Madrid and Barcelona in particular, who are making about 140 million euros a year. Whereas you had Atletico Madrid, who actually won the league two years ago, only making 42 million euros a year. And to put that into perspective, the EPL's last place team that was relegated two years ago, Cardiff City, in that same season made 74.5 million euros. So over 30 million euros more than what the winner of La Liga made. So now finally the Spanish FA has stepped in and said look we need to be able to collectively go out and sell these rights, like the other leagues have done. Basically, we need to catch up with the times. Because now instead of having each club go out on its own and have minimal bargaining power as a unit. You can go out now and say if you want to show a La Liga game, if you want to see Real, you want to see Barcelona, whoever the case might be, you're going to have to pay for everybody. So now Spanish newspapers are reporting that that deal is going to be estimated about 1.5 billion euros a year. So while it's not quite to the level of the Premier League, it's a heck of a start. >> So back to you, thank you, back to you, Dale. So how does this translate? What about across our major leagues? There's a salary cap, there's a luxury tax in the MBA, let's stay with that Dan Gilbert and the Cavs. We know he's way overspending the cap, he's going to pay a huge luxury tax, it gets redistributed, some to the players, some to the other teams. But how does that translate? How do these media rights still in the Premier League translate? Is there any salary cap for any of these clubs in Premier League? >> No salary cap at all. So to go back to the example we were talking about a few minutes ago of players going to these bigger clubs is a bigger pay day because they have the money. Ricky can talk more about the equation of how the money's distributed according to prime time spots in games and whatnot. But the wealthier clubs are wealthy. They're able to pay the players more, the allure of playing there is greater, the pay-off is greater. So therefore with the example of what I use with Michael Owen going to Rio Madrid. Or Marez potentially leaving Leicester City and going to one of the Big 4 clubs in the EPL or even overseas maybe. Those clubs have the money, they have the ability to pay somebody to not play because there is no salary cap. So spending that money to keep that person out of the clutches of one of your competitors is pay off enough if you will. >> Let's jump to jersey sponsorships that's all the rage, you're also going to help us introduce this subject. Will the NBA and the NHL follow the path? Soccer leagues globally have been selling jersey sponsorships for years. Can you take us through, again those monies flow back to the players through the teams? >> It's in the bank account, which enables the club to be able to pay the players more and to attract better players. And historically, [COUGH] excuse me, it wasn't there. It was 1977 is my first as a young British guy Is my first recollection of a shirt sponsor and that's Hibernian FC in Edinburgh and they had Bootka across their chest. From there is was the early 80s, 81, 82, the big push seem to be 83 when you started to see major international corporations start to put their names on shirts. [COUGH] Excuse me, I believe Arsenal FC in London, their first one is Hitachi, Sharp was Manchester United's, I'm sorry, JVC was Arsenal's. Sharp was Manchester United and Hitachi was Liverpool. So you had these international companies, obviously all electronic companies at that point in time, putting their names on the shirt, getting their brand out there. And how does that help the club? Well, every year you changed that shirt, every couple years that sponsorship changes, it's no longer cool as a kid to wear the shirt with the last sponsor on it. So you're out buying The new version if you will. So the people aren't looking at you as having last year's fashion on. So driving revenues there. >> And you were saying even the practice jerseys- >> Even the practice jerseys. >> Are sponsored separately and differently. >> Absolutely. >> So additional sources of revenue for again, representing a professional athlete you want to go to the premier league, you want to go to the teams that have the most money because their financial fair play would only require that they break even. So if we were saying in the prep session at Manchester United, we grossed, whatever it was, half a billion dollars, they could essentially spend that as long as they didn't go into debt. >> Correct. >> So that's how, in representing a professional athlete, we want our audience, our class, to be focusing on do you follow the money is that in the best interest? Shirt sponsorships, media rights deals, follow the money you can see through our slides and through our PowerPoint through this discussion. I think we want to sort of round third and head home when look at watch this space for the NBA. I think it's inevitable that there's going to be sponsorship there already is. NHL has certain practice jerseys that are NHL commissioner says maybe, maybe not. A NBA commissioner says maybe, maybe not. Watch this space as our course evolves. I think we want to round third and head home with publicity rights? So how this intrude perhaps upon the individual player publicity rights across the three leagues? LeBron, he has this huge Nike deal. What if Adidas wants to put a patch on, God forbid. He'd have to be able to opt out of that, obviously. But publicity rights, we look at the highest paid athlete endorses in the world so now we're going off course Ricky. And we've prepared this slide to talk about Roger Federer, in endorsements last year was at the top of the table, 58 million. Tiger still up there, 50 million in golf. Phil Mickelson, LeBron James, all in the $40 $50 million range just staying with the top four or five. So when we look at publicity rights of the athletes, how do we protect this athlete's image worldwide? We have a number of lessons and modules on that now, but you've come up with a really good soccer example, and you and Dale can talk about this. What is going on with Bastian Schweinsteiger and this Hong Kong based company Dragon and Dream for producing this World War II Army Supply. How is that not a violation of his publicity rights? >> Right. So, as you mentioned, there's this Hong Kong based company that is producing Nazi dolls. Nazi soldier dolls and in multiple different uniforms. And with multiple different time periods throughout World War II and they have named these dolls Bastian. And it just so happens that it bears a striking resemblance to Bastian Schweinsteiger who happened to be the captain of Germany as well as arguably the best known German soccer player in the world. And now his agent and him are having to decide, what do we do about this? Is there anything we can do about this because unfortunately in Hong Kong they don't have codified legislation on publicity rights. >> Right. >> So how do you protect yourself from now being associated with these Nazi dolls? Which clearly you don't want, even the fraught Chancellor of Germany has stepped in and she said, this is completely insane and unreasonable that there is, that this company is doing this. So what he has to decide is, how do we go after them? How do we stop this? Do we try to stop this? Can we stop this? So once you, as the agent, you look and see, again, Hong Kong doesn't have the legislation to stop it. You look next at where do they distribute to? So now, if you look at their distributors, and where nine of their major distributors are located, the US, the UK, China, Japan. Each have codified legislation on player publicity or publicity rights in general, but in particular of athletes and entertainers. >> And we'll have to look at we have a wonderful module. Professor Craig Nard about publicity rights. What sorts cease and desist could there be a First Amendment transformative use argument coming back the other way? Is it defamatory? Is it destructive of his brand, his image, in a way that the cease and desist could hold up? I mean, watch this space. On a brighter note, we have a slide that we'll share with our audience for Cristiano Ronaldo and selling his image rights to a Singaporean tycoon who's the owner of an opposing club. >> Right, so you have obviously Cristiano Ronaldo plays for Real Madrid, Valencia is also in La Liga and typically towards the top of the table with them. Cristiano Ronaldo decided to sell his image rights to Valencia's owner, who happens to be one of the largest businessmen in Singapore. And there were a lot of uproar and rage about this because what does it mean? Is this his way of somehow throwing dirt in the face of Real Madrid or what is he trying to accomplish here? Now Ronaldo comes out and says well, this man has a large line of business all across Asia. Which is obviously the next market to tackle in terms of publicity rights for international athletes. And he said, this is simply the next step. This is me breaking into the Asian market. That's all it is. So Ronaldo has over 180 million followers and fans amongst his social media accounts. His sponsors are already Coca-Cola, Castrol, KFC, Samsung I mean he's got a wide portfolio. And again, this was just the next step, it's all it was. >> Brilliant diversification. We talk about segmentation of the product endorsement categories. Brilliant agenting, brilliant representation throughout. A lot like what LeBron has done going into China. Why? Because that's where the most people are who can follow him the most, his social media use. His beyond comparison I think Lebron's is and Ronaldo's gotta be right up there with him, probably the most followed social media person outside of Lebron, 180 million followers. Let's just finish up by talking about in the last analysis as you look at this, Dale let's come back to you and just ask you. And now you're agenting for a young pre-professional, a soccer player. Let's end where we began. Do you just follow the money? Not to repeat ourselves but now that we've looked through the deal, how, let's go back to LeBron. Let's use him as an example. He's professionalized his representation. He's started with his posse. It was Maverick and now Rich Paul and people that he grew up with and he knew. But he's also got Mark Lebb and Fenway Sports Marketing and he's got Fred Nance as his constant attorney from high school [INAUDIBLE]. So would your best practice recommendation be to surround yourself, certainly initially until you break through with friends, family whom you know and trust. But then, get the best professionals that you can to represent you through once these media rights deals, these jersey sponsorships, as these leagues grow and you become a superstar, like a Ronaldo or a Lebron. Would your best practice for our audience be okay you can be the agent like Rich Paul, but don't try to be the investment advisor and don't try to be the attorney? So not to pick on Rich Paul. >> Yeah, I think having the right team is absolutely essential and it's realizing, and I think the right team also has to understand the sport industry. I think, we could all give lots of examples of very successful business people that have tried to jump into sport and had it handed back to them. >> Curt Schilling. >> Because they don't understand the nuisances of the industry and how it works and it could even just come down to basic things like using the correct jargon to get things done. So that team is essential and again it comes back to can you combine that short term gain with a long term plan and putting together that right team of financial advisors. I mean I hate to say life coaches. >> Yes, absolutely. >> To prepare interviews, behavior off the court, off the field, whatever the case might be. Having that complete team of people around that budding star athlete when they get to that professional point in time becomes essential to the long term success of not only the individuals and athlete but the individual athlete as a brand. >> As a brand. >> They can take advantage of long-term. >> We always use Michael Jordan as maybe the best example. That managing that brand worldwide. He's still on that dispute, which we'll talk about, in China of publicity rights. >> Yeah, I would say one thing to add to that is essentially, if you have the right team, you allow the athlete to be an athlete. >> Right. >> They focus on the field, whereas you handle the rest as a team and you make sure that each person stays within their expertise so that you don't run into any issues, endorsing the wrong people or having a bad egg in the group. >> We like to say be an athlete. >> Be an athlete and- >> Let us take care of the rest. [LAUGH] >> Absolutely. Well we want to thank you both for being with us. It's been a wonderful discussion. It cuts across so many different modules. Agent regulation, the maximization of income opportunities both on the court, on the course, off the field. And I think for those of you who are watching here today, please take under advisement all these best practices from real expertise in the world of soccer football in particular. So I want to thank you for being with us and we'll close out this module with a handshake and a thank you very much for being with us, Dale. >> Thank you. >> All right, and Ricky. Terrific, thank you very much. [MUSIC]
