[MUSIC] Welcome back. We're talking about representing the professional athlete. We're really proud to have with us today two of my former students who are now out there representing professional athletes in very different ways. And yet in congruent ways, complimentary ways, that we want to bring to your attention. We want you to understand how you create an agency, how you join an agency, and how you create new income streams by representing professional athletes, both across the tax and business as well as the agent representation business. Let me first introduce Ricky Volante has been with us from the beginning. Welcome, Ricky. >> Thank you. >> Let's start with you and Miles Welo is going to be next. But let's start about what do you do all day, everyday as you create your agency. Miles is going to talk to us about how you compliment each other in your agency work by being attorney to your agency as you get it off on the ground. Let's start with soccer football and getting that first client in soccer. We got a lot of questions about that. >> The way that we actually got our first soccer client was interesting. It was through LinkedIn. A certain player reached out to me that was playing in the Slovenian Premier League and was interested in trying to seek a transfer to the United States, was aware of what we were doing as a company. It was actually a former student of the MOOC and asked if we could use our connections with NASL and MLS clubs to find him a transfer. At that point, knock on wood, the transfer will be completed here in the next day or so and now we have our first soccer client. And that has bled over onto other sports because now we're able to say that we do indeed represent professional athletes. >> Yeah. We want to talk about your football practice. This is all part of Ricky's, we're going to have a bio on him, his C5 and his consulting business, but let's turn to you, Miles. Welcome, good to have you here. >> Thank you. >> You went in to a much more mature legal practice but a lot of what you do, it correlates to and is complimentary of that which Ricky does on the player agent side. >> Absolutely, so I represent athletes primarily on their personal legal side, personal business side. We help with estate planning, personal business work, corporations that they might own, LLCs they might operate, certain entities out of. Some of the contract work for their actual performance but primarily, personal business work, personal estate planning >> Let's back up a little bit, I said you guys are both former star students of mine. Ricky, what sorts of qualifications were required for you to be able to start your own agency with your partners? >> First and foremost, is being personable and being able to talk a good game and approach somebody. Also just being resourceful, being able to solve problems because you will [LAUGH] confront them on a hourly basis sometimes, if not more often than that. But just generally understanding the lay of the land and understanding how the sport works. >> You're being only a little bit humble, but having played sports at a high level, I want to come back to you on this, Miles. Does that let you relate better to representing that first professional athlete? >> Absolutely, being able to understand what the athlete is going through on a daily basis automatically creates a more personal connection with them. >> Miles, how about yourself? You played at a high level. How does that help you? Is it a necessary condition to be able to work with these people or not so much? A nice to have but not a must have. >> I don't know if it's a must have but it's definitely a nice to have. You understand what they're going through a little bit more, you understand some of the intricacies. It is one of the most demanding things to be a high level college athlete and you have the full-time job being the athlete and then you have a full-time job being the student. I think it is good for them to know that they're with somebody who understands that, whose also been through that. >> At what point do you think, I remember this at IMG, it crosses the legal or the transfer, the agent teamwork into their personal lives? Their practical, what do I do next? It's not legal and it's not transfer. It's what schools should make kids go to? Does it get to that point? >> Absolutely, it does. I think Ricky hit on it and it was told to me on my first day law school. You're problem solver. You're a problem solver first, come up with a practical solution, sometimes it's legal, sometimes it's not. But you're helping these people in every aspect of their lives and it's very fluid situation, you're dealing with their families, they're traveling a lot. They might be traded a few times in one season and you have to be a consistent basis in their lives to help them through all that. >> Now how important, we hear this all the time when we had our live sessions, is it a juris doctorate, is it a JD degree and or business degree. How often do you use your legal studies, Ricky, for example? >> Every day, simple as that. [LAUGH] >> All day, everyday? [LAUGH] >> Very often. Again, using the transfer as an example, trying to get a Spanish born player who is playing in the Slovenian Premier League to transfer to Puerto Rico. You now have immigration laws that you have got to review and understand, tax issues that you have to review and understand, how to secure the visa for the player, what the implications of the transfer might have on your commission rates. How much the player's going to be getting paid, I mean go to wealth estate planning and things like that, whatever the case might be. If they're married, you're throwing even more stuff in there. So yeah, I use it every day. >> Let's differentiate. Where do you have to put that JD and have to put that hey, I've passed the bar exam ahead of that which you might do for some of your clients at your firm, Miles? >> It's important with all the contract work that we do with the estates and trusts and operating agreements that the legal degree is very important for that because you're advising them specifically on legal ramifications on certain things. But I think getting a JD is just extremely important. It broadens your capabilities. It opens your eyes to a lot of different things that I don't think you would be open to anyway. So it's extremely important. >> I think it's important for our audience to hear because it's rare, you've been so successful each of you already early in your careers. Was it important to have a fall back plan? If that next client doesn't come through that door, I still have a legal practice or I still have a consulting practice, let's just tease that out a little bit too. Representing professional athletes is a great thing but sometimes you can go dry for awhile too. >> Absolutely, and you want to be able to account for those dry spells. But at the same time, you don't want to be too comfortable in your other fall back option because then you're not going to put your best effort forward necessarily to recruit the clients. So it's a double edge sword there. >> Yeah, I have to agree. You have to have it because that's what we've been trained to do going through law school is to CYA, cover your bases. But at the same time, especially being former athletes, you have to be relentless and you have to go after your goal and compete to the highest ability that you can. I don't think that you ever go into a situation thinking that you're going to lose. It is nice to have that back up plan. You know that it's there, but I try not to think that it's there. I try not to consciously be aware that it is there so that I go full force all the time. >> So when you look at that, here's why you must hire me. Again, we're talking to our audience about growing a business now that we've established one. How important is it to be able to say we're a full service agency? Certainly at IMG, all those years we would say we can do anything. Turnkey operation. Hand your lives to us and we will run your lives so that you may just run with the football or whatever it might be. So, how important is wealth and estate planning for example, let's say, hey we can let our firm not only take care of all the LLC's and everything else. We're not the financial managers per se but we can be your life managers. How important is it when you go to sell to that next client, Mile? >> It's extremely important, it's a distinguishing characteristic. I think there are a lot of different people that can help you with a specific thing. We can do this for you, we can do that for you but to be able to come into our company with like minded people, former athletes, and say listen, you come to us, we'll take care of your personal business work, we can handle some of your representation work. We can work hand-in-hand with your financial adviser, we can work hand-in-hand with your realtor. We can work hand-in-hand with you wife and with your family, with you husband. And we can Dd everything with you and for you wherever you need to go. It's extremely important and it is extremely valuable to us. >> Yeah, and Rick, as you grow your agency, I know you have partners who have these expertise. But how important is it to establish a network of trusted advisors? >> You absolutely have to because if you don't come to the table, when you're trying to recruit a client, and have all your bases covered I'm willing to bet that somebody else in the room as far as another agent is concerned at least does. And if you haven't covered all your bases you've started behind the eight ball already in a tough game. >> Yeah, let's start with how important it is to be ethical and be full of integrity throughout this process. It's not a clean game, oftentimes we see all the scandals that are out there, paid to play, here's a $100 handshake in the locker room. We all know those stories. I mean, how do you stay above that line? How do you not go to that lowest common denominator, going after that number one pick or that next best soccer player? >> I think you have to have a lot of personal resolve and you have to have a value system but that's also, I don't think, a sustainable business model. You recruit a certain type of player, you have a certain type of athlete, that you represent, and there are some common denominators, through them, and a value system. And you know it's sustainable, and stable, and, sometimes, the pay to play model, or things like it can fall to pieces rather quickly, so. >> You're seeking your certification, let's stay with you. You have to have a JD or an advanced degree to be an NFLPA representative, is that a bar that's high enough? Can people cross each and everyone of those bars and still have ethical issues? I mean we're right in the middle of hearing about a disqualification, a desertification of one of the most famous football agents, can say it, it's public, Ben Dogra. >> Yeah, it's extremely important, actually can you repeat the question?. >> Yeah, no, so how important is it, is that a high enough bar- >> Yeah. >> To say you're either a JD or an MBA now, that's the highest bar that's been set for a professional. And we'll get back to soccer, football and what's required to be an agent over there, but it's a high bar but- >> Yeah. >> We still see these crash and burn situations with NFL PA certified reps. >> Yeah, I think you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and that is a good line. It's obviously not perfect, and perfect system. There are lawyers, every meet that I get the green book that they did things wrong on their own. So you do as much as you can to be a lawyer. You have to pass the MPRE which is a ethics test, and the NFL PA actually, I was surprised the application process was similar to the character and fitness application to be an attorney. It went pretty in depth into your history and they are going to look into you. So I think they do the best they can but I don't think any of us are perfect and >> Or we study down in North Carolina there have been convictions, we were talking about this the other day. Terry Watson, you know the whole UNC, now we're talking about the academic scandals but the mighty Quinn was paid, and [LAUGH] by quite a few people. And DJ Fluker down in Alabama, and these agents go in there and to your point they're going to win, but sometimes when the hand is out, it gets filled. How do you, soccer, football, let's go to that, there are no rules. >> [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] Let's be honest, right? Sometimes the player goes to the highest bidder. How do you play the game above the line in getting your next clients? >> It's very difficult in the soccer world. As you said FIFA released what I would compare to basically an advisory opinion, that they put out to the different football associations saying here's what we would recommend. They included some educational guidelines, they included some commissioned rate limits but they were not obligated to follow them. So you now have football associations that are suing FIFA saying we're not going to abide by these, you have agency groups that are suing FIFA saying we're not going to abide by these. So it's basically the Wild West. You're not only competing with, not even certified agents, you're not even competing with well known agents. You're also competing with their family members, their friends, whatever. >> The hanger is on. >> The hanger ons, yeah. You never know anyone at any given moment could be trying to take your client from you. So it's a very different world from the NFL or the NBA or the MLB where it's far more structured. So yeah, you're basically always looking over your shoulder. >> But even still then, let's go back to growing the practice. And now we've established a baseline, we're going to do it by the rules, we're going to do it the right way. How do you then scale the practice, Miles and we were talking ahead of time maybe you want to get beyond the professional athlete to the professional coach too, given the connections you've been able to make. And how is that perhaps more stable environment? >> Well one it's a lot more guaranteed money for the coaches and the front office personnel. So that's one thing, but it's all through relationships. You continue to grow, you continue to get out there and meet people, do the right thing, treat people the right way, and then it ends up coming back around. So I think the last thing you ever want to do is burn a bridge, regardless of if you should or not. because you can never cross it again, 5, 10, 15 years, down the road. So, it's important to, just constantly grow relationships, and treat people the right way. >> Now, let's talk about conflict of interest. We used to have this all the time. At IMG, it still does, [COUGH] And, I'm sure, because now you represent [COUGH] A coach, and a player, on the same team. Jeff Schwartz talks a little bit about this. My old friend, who's now with Excel Sports, how do you represent Jason Kidd, an NBA coach and a bunch of players on the same team? Let's go to you the ethicist here Ricky, how do you manipulate that, is full disclosure sufficient? Again we're talking about growing a burgeoning practice, now you're into coaches but what are the players saying? Well wait a minute, who's side are you going to take in this dispute? >> As the agent I'm going to say that full disclosure is enough. As the player or as the coach, whichever side, they're probably going to argue that it's not enough. I mean, there are ways that you can try to build walls within your group to maybe have a certain secondary agent represent the player while he's going through the negotiations. Which is common practice that you'll have a secondary, sometimes a third or even a fourth agent on an SRA, a Standard Rep Agreement, that's one way to do it. Jeff in that case would stick with Jason and the secondary agent for one of the players would represent the player. And then you just have to remain ethical. It all goes back to, as an organization, when you set your goals or your core values or whatever the case might be, you buy in and you stick to them. >> We've been dwelling primarily on team sports but the course goes into golf and tennis and I know you have a terrific golf practice as well. Miles, is it different with the individual sports? Yeah I would say it is. It's one like the specific contract work is different. You don't have to worry about them being traded or moving around. But it is a lot more fluid, they're reliant solely on themselves. If someone's having some personal issues on a team, they might still be successful because the team is supporting them. Well if someone has personal issues in an individual sport, it could effect them and their income stream a lot more. Particularly with golf, they have a very interesting retirement package. There are a few different retirement plans that they offer, so you have to make sure that you have all the bases covered with all four of those. But yeah, it's different with team sports and individual sports. >> Yeah, and talk about the international, thank you for that, the international components. So how do you protect wealth or preserve wealth, wealth preservation issues, insurance issues with an international client? You need this network of advisors. How does somebody like Jim Cupertino come into play here? >> Unfortunately in the case of Jim's specifically, he's certified in every state of the United States, as well as, I believe, every country almost in the world that allows insurance certification. So he's an easy call to make on the insurance front. And that, obviously adds a huge component in terms of value for my group when I am trying to talk to a player. And then, additionally, surrounding yourself again with a solid network of guys that, or girls that are able to understand the nature of the business. Understand the nature of the international components and be able to adapt and understand whatever laws might be different, whatever tax issues might be different, whatever the case is. It's just the adaptability and overall understanding. >> And as we go through the four stages, the four phases of the professional athlete's career which this course does, how important is income preservation, certainly the protection against a career ending injury? Disability protection, especially with the football players, concussion issues which we talk about at length in the course. >> I mean, it's extremely important. If you look at the career path of a professional athlete as opposed to the average person, they are making their wealth in doing the majority of their work early on in their career. And some people leave college early, didn't get their degree. Some people leave the real life work force and are playing a sport for 15 years and they don't necessarily have something lined up after that. Or if they get hurt in a middle of it, so you have to make sure, I mean your job is to make sure that they are covered and you have to prepare for the worst. And that's what we're here to do. >> And what the team sports, no secret. The union, yes, they are your friend but only up to a point and the league sometimes becomes your enemy, when you have the disability claim that's denied, you're no longer in the union. We might have seen the Concussion movie by now, we see how the league will fight a claim of traumatic brain injury. That concussion litigation is not yet settled. So how do you represent that professional athlete through those difficult times? >> Yeah, especially right now it is really difficult. Ricky says the wild, wild West. These concussion issues are really just coming to the forefront. It was interesting, I saw a clip from Any Given Sunday yesterday. And that movie was so ahead of its time, in that respect with players going through injury and, who is the team doctor really representing? The athlete or the team? And it's really difficult to navigate. You just have to try to make sure their bases are covered with insurance, make sure that their health insurance is very good, make sure their life insurance is very good, and that they can sustain a livable lifestyle. Maybe not to the same degree that it was when they were playing but if they get hurt they can still provide for themselves and their family. >> Supplemental disability just in case the league denies the claim. Okay, these are all great touch points. Let's go back to disclosures of potential conflicts of interest Ricky. Again you want to have this network, I'm not picking on you but it can't be an exclusive network. It can't be hey Jim I scratch your back, you scratch mine. When I send you a client you're going to send me. There have been lots of cases there where the agent's duty goes beyond just referring to somebody you trust, exclusively. >> Exactly, so basically, the way you work through that process is taking financial advisors as an example, which you would do is, you would inform your client the importance of having a financial advisor. And you would provide them with a list of recommended financial advisors. If it's in the NFL world then you'd have to provide NFL PA certified financial advisors. If the rest of the sports there is no such requirement but basically you provide them with a list. You might make a recommendation and say this is my trusted guy. But I would be comfortable with you selecting any one of these from the list whether it be three, four, or five. I would say generally three to five to meet your duty as you were talking about. But then ultimately the decision is up to the player. >> And in the famous case, as we talked about, the Nevin Shapiro down at Miami had a partial ownership interest in an agency at the same time he was paying players to come play for the University of Miami. Then trying to get them to sign, is that so textbook that it might not happen again, or is that something we could encounter? Undisclosed ownership in an agency. >> You never know. >> Anything's possible. >> [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] That's what we want our audience to stay away from. >> [LAUGH] >> That's why we're offering. Or even the great Drew Rosenhaus, who is a friend, is under investigation of exclusive referrals to a financial services firm that ended up putting some of his clients, alleged, went into bankruptcy. So to have sort of not total control, Miles, back to you, and I would say if you are going to be with us as your lawyers and advisers. Then we would highly recommend not just A-B-C but X-Y-Z too maybe as well. >> Yeah, absolutely and it's also again back to relationships, we work with a lot of different financial advisors of all different shapes, sizes, ages, locations and a lot of that plays. You know if I get a 23-year old NFL player who just came up on you know has rookie contract. I'm not just going to refer him to the same person, we have a network of a lot of reliable people. But I'm going to you know give him a list of approved financial advisers and maybe talk to him about some of the ones I think you would fit with the best on a personal level cause you dealing with these people's, very specific details in private details of their lives. You're going to build the trust to everybody and make sure the relationships worked. But yeah, I think when your network gets big enough and you start referring to a lot of different people, it becomes self-referring and then it just, it grows from there. >> And you can have two quarterbacks, you can have two left tackles, as long as you disclose, I'm not going to put your interests ahead of the other left tackle. That's an important part of the course too. So going down to the very finest level of detail, you're a senior partner, Mr. Turner, was kind enough to come to our academy class, talk about the jock tax. I mean you've got to be a really serious specialist too to do some of this work. >> Yeah absolutely, each city, state, county, has their own taxes and when you are playing a professional sport, you're going to different cities. I mean you owe income tax, I mean it fluctuates by every city, every state, every county, but you have to have a specialist there to make sure you are paying the proper tax, every single place that you go every year, you don't miss anything. But you also, the city of Cleveland got push back because of how they were taxing individuals on their workdays. And so you also have to be able to represent your, the interests of your clients when you think that they're being taxed too much. >> Yeah, and Ricky, if you're going to be, and you are already doing international transfers, what expert do you turn to to make sure the tax gets paid precisely what it should be, when it should be? Well in that case, there are firms that specialize, particularly within the world of immigration and transfers for soccer. So one of them would be the safest route to go. But again obviously, you could find a firm in the US. If they're properly prepared or willing to properly prepare themselves to handle that sort of work. >> Let's finish up with your sport on baseball. Having played at a high level. Now, high school players can have a agent. Lo and behold, the NCAA has allowed this little window into amateurism. So, at what point do you want to grab? I mean, again, as you grow your business. At what point do you want to grab that next great Clint Frazier? That next great Brad Zimmer? That's going to come through the end system and blossom and be a multi-year guaranteed guy. Like Chris Davis. Who's going to get paid until 2035. I mean, at what inflection point is that best for you to spend your time, energy, resources as you would grow your baseball practice? >> If you're working on a baseball practice. I would really say that this rule doesn't change a whole lot. Because these guys were already scouting high school players anyway. And when players are drafted on draft day, they probably already had an agent. >> Uh-huh. >> Someone to the level of Clint Frazier, who knew he was going to go in the top ten, probably already had an agent. >> Maybe he admitted as much. [LAUGH] When we interviewed him. >> So, I would say that it really doesn't change a whole lot. Except now that, if that player Clint Frazer, if maybe he slid to the end of the first round. But he already had the agent, so technically he would be ineligible. Now, he can get around that and maintain his eligibility. And then return to the college ranks in an attempt to resuscitate or rehabilitate his draft stock through college, so. >> I guess what I'm getting at is now you're in the mature years of growing your agency. We hear Andy Simms say, for an NFL player, gosh it is just arithmetic. And the NBA isn't that much different. MLB, that first contract is pretty much slotted, right? Is it really what you're after, Miles, as you guys would grow, let's say, your football practice? You'd say, I want that first free agent contract. I want it four years qualified. That's when I want them. Because that is when I can make a difference. >> Yeah, I mean, definitely, that's when the value is there. But at the same time, you get them as a rookie. That's where you're going to develop that relationship, that trust. I mean, when someone has the opportunity to make a lot of money, there's a lot of people that show up on the door and want to be your friend. >> [LAUGH] >> So, it's the people that are there before the money that I think you can really rely on. And that's how we like to approach our business development model. >> I was talking, I don't think he'd mind my saying. Johnson Bademosi, who just qualified for free agency, four years with the Browns, who's their player rep to the union. And it's a brave new world for him. He can go anywhere. And the coaching differences here in Cleveland might make a difference for him, might not. But his agent, let's pursue that. I mean his agent, his agent's duty now that he's a chief free agency, is to show him the money, right? >> Absolutely. >> I mean, no offense to the Browns for sure. We love the Browns. We're here in Cleveland. But this is a short life. He's a gunner on special teams. He's qualified for free agency. If you're reping him as his agent, you're going to say, we love the Browns. But somebody else is giving him more guaranteed money. I mean, is that just as simple as it can get? >> That is as simple as it can get. But it also depends on the specific player. He might have children that are in fifth, sixth, seventh grades that he wants them to finish out at the same school. And he might have say, I'll take a home team discount. Because I want my kids to grow up with their friends. We actually dealt with a situation kind of similar to that this summer. Someone went to a team because he wanted to be in that city and he wanted his family to be in that city. And so he ended up in that city. But absolutely your first job is to show him the money and maximize his value while it's there. Especially for someone like Bademosi, who's a gunner on special teams and injuries can come at any moment. Although he did get some play. >> Yes he did. >> In back field and defensive back field, and he played well while he was there. >> Yeah. Let's go to baseball. People asked me this all the time as we [COUGH] round third and head home, to use a baseball metaphor. Is baseball agency really where you want to be because the guaranteed money's there? You see these incredible guaranteed contracts. As we say for Chris Davis, going to get paid to 2035 if you believe the published report. >> Yes. I mean, at the end of the day, baseball's certainly the long play there. Is that you are going to have much larger guaranteed dollars in any contract that you negotiate. Now granted, given the system of baseball, you have to have gotten that player in their free professional career. And then stuck with him for six years until they qualify for free agency. Unless you have a special talent, like a Mike Trout, who is going to sign a very hefty extension prior to reaching his free agent years. So it's a long term strategy. That's the big thing that I would add in there. But if you stick with it and are successful in your recruiting phase, it's going to pay off. >> But isn't that the tension for both you guys? As we finish up here. And then I just want to ask Johnny Manziel a question, can't be done without that. [COUGH] And firing a client, which is just what happened to Poor Billy, Johnny Manziel. So, but isn't that the problem, isn't that million dollar baby problem? Now I'm ready for the championship fight. Now I'm ready for free agency. I'm going to go to Scott Boras. Because he knows how to do it, right? I'm going to go to the super agent, the Tom Condon, now that I have of my guaranteed contract. because he knows how to do it better than anybody else. And you built up all this sweat equity over, let's call them, the slotted years. And now here comes the super agent swooping in to steal that client. And there's nothing you can do to stop it. I'm using that as an extreme example. But it happens. >> It absolutely does happen. But to kind of revert back to what we talked about earlier. You hope that you're able to at least reduce the chances of that happening through your client identification phase. In terms of finding people that fit your core values or your philosophy. And then just there has to be an element of trust there. >> Mm-hm, Miles? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think we're all human and when that opportunity comes and a is able to walk up and say, listen, I've done it before. I've gotten the $100 million contract before. It's easy to go with him and say he's going to do it for me too. But the town and the player drive that. And there's no reason that another agent can't get you that same exact contract. And it's about the relationship and how stable it is. And how long you've been together. And how you work together. So treating the people the right way, treating families the right way, is extremely important in sustaining your client base. >> To finish literally at the home base, we are here in Cleveland and Johnny Manzel, troubled times, was fired by his agency. When is it within your fiduciary duties where we will no longer represent Johnny, says LRMR, Which is partially owned by LeBron. Fenway Sports also works with LRMR. We also are out of the business of representing Johnny Manzel. When is it within your fiduciary duties as an agent to say, we will no longer represent you? >> Again, not to repeat myself but there's, well there's a couple of answers here. One, contractually if you have the ability to get out of it. If there are morals clauses or things along those lines that give you outs, so that you can fire that client. Then also though, it goes back to adopting a certain philosophy and sticking to that philosophy. And trying to instill the same values into your players. And if they're going to go against that, you're not going to have the ability to be able to represent them wholeheartedly. If you go to sleep every night wondering, what are they going to do next? It wears on you as the agent. >> But let me just press on that with you. Put your attorney cap on. Your duty to represent your client zealously from the beginning, middle, end. I think it is a lot easier for an agency to construct a contract that says, almost a reverse morals clause, if you do certain things, especially given Johnny's history, where because you're damaging our brand. Damaging LeBron's brand by saying he represents you. Putting a yellow wig on and going to Las Vegas, apparently. That's what he did. And Sashi Brown now says he will be fined for that. So, apparently it happened. But let's go, is it a different level of duty for the attorney? It's really hard to fire a client. >> Absolutely, it is. And luckily, to this point, I've never been put in the situation where I had to get rid of a client as an agent and keep the client as an attorney. But at the same time, as an attorney, a lot of times, we get a phone call when something bad does happen to someone. So it's almost in the attorney capacity. I mean, that's the moment when we should be there the most to help our client get out of a particular situation. And I mean, for a law firm that's not necessarily bad for branding to help someone out of a legal quagmire. But for an agency, it can bring a lot of bad press onto how you practice. So it's almost- >> Certainly at IMG, that's why our legal department still to this day with the BME IMG we represent the company, we don't represent the individual. Because there's potential for conflicts. Let me finish with a tough one. I mean sometimes you can represent one but not the other of a married couple, too. The athlete being either a male or female and the other not. >> Yeah, absolutely, and that becomes a problem if at some point they are no longer married because if you represent the wife and the husband which is the standard model when you're setting up a business plan. You are the attorney to both of them, you cannot withhold information from either one of them. And so at the end of their relationship, if it does end up getting there, you have to be very delicate with how you handle things. And to be honest, a lot of the times, we will end up referring both people out for the particular matter at hand or one person will decide that they're going to retain another attorney in and we'll keep one of them. But that's a very delicate situation. >> Those of you who want to do this work, what we're suggesting to you is hear our two young folk, who are doing a great job at what they're doing, but hear to climb the next mountains hear the kinds of issues they're going to be confronting. So Ricky, let's finish up with you. Let's talk about your three to five years strategic plan. Those of you who want to become the next C5? What would you say are the most important steps that should be taken over the next year or two or three as you grow your business with your partners? >> Right, so I mean, we're now coming up on the end of year one. Basically the entire first year was about building the appropriate relationships. Getting a lay of the land, getting word out there that we're doing this as a group. Now, we're in the, we're heavily recruiting at this point now. >> We built those relationships, both with individuals within the business itself as well as the athletes and entertainers because we are getting into the music and film industries as well. Now we're in a strong recruitment phase, that'll probably take up the next year, and then from there, it's a matter of keeping your current clients happy while also continuing to recruit new clients simultaneously. Which then that just goes back to how will you built your team. Which I feel very confident and comfortable with what we've built. >> Yeah, and not sleeping much. >> And not sleeping much. [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] >> Just to juxtapose as we finish, came into a mature practice but the important part there is to have a differentiator that's you, that's unique to you. Not that you would ever leave your firm, but right, explain to us again how you're scaling your business within a mature business. >> Yeah, so the practice that I was hired into was primarily golf, some NBA work with front office personnel, and some players in major league, same amount. And so the carve-out that I have is going to be, I work with those athletes and with those clients of ours but in the NFL and the football world and college coaches and working with schools and whatnot. So I'm going to carve out a football practice as well as, like Ricky said, a music and entertainment practice. It's interesting, I guess, maybe the digital age, those things bleed over a lot and athletes and entertainers are very friendly with one another, and they refer people to one another. So, going forward, you have to be flexible. You have to be able to pivot at the right time, and expand your practice at the right time, and broaden the scope of your work at the right time. So it's a fluid situation. But you got to stick to your core values and make calculated decisions. >> Yeah, I have different Sirius satellite radio stations now than I used to myself, so I can speak your language. Okay, we want to thank Ricky and we want to thank Miles for being with us, this has been a great session. Welcome back to Representing Professional Athletes. We hope you've found this instructive. We hope it will take you down the path you want to pursue as you take this course, and obviously if there's any time any of us can help you, please let us know. You have our identification information through the course, and it's been our privilege and pleasure to be with you. So thanks Miles. >> Thank you. >> Thanks very much, and thanks Ricky. Great to be with you and thanks to those of you out here watching this module. [MUSIC]
