So welcome Stephanie Toliver, thank you so much for recording this conversation with me, for storing the self for leadership and creativity. And we've already been having a wonderful conversation. So I'm just going to let us dive back into things. You were about to start sharing more about speculative moments in everyday life which connects to your work and speculative fiction and futures. And I would love to hear you talk more about that. >> So I think that when a lot of people think about the speculative, they automatically go to Star Trek and [LAUGH] stuff like like far out other worlds and aliens or they go to magical elements where there's wizards and stuff like that. And I love that stuff, don't get me wrong, it is some of my favorite reading, some of my favorite watching all of that. But I think that I come back to, there's a quote by Walidah Imarisha in her book, Octavia's Brood and she says that, any time you think about social justice or better worlds or something different that's going to happen in your life or someone else's life. Like that is speculative fiction too. And so I've really been, I don't know, really been focusing on that in the last couple of months specifically thinking about my research back home. And I think about how in the example that I gave you earlier of my mom's street. We live on the west side of town, which is well, which was red line to be the black side of town and still very much is the black side of town. And so in terms of infrastructure, like the city doesn't do that much. So my mom's road, it used to be a two lane road and there was kind of trees and stuff on both sides, and now it's become a one lane road because there's overgrowth on the road. And it's also becoming a dumping place because people can't, that's a whole another thing, but it's just become this space that the government doesn't really care about. And so I think in a lot of ways, people might think that, well, this can't be a place where dreaming can happen. It doesn't look like one, it looks like a dump, it looks like potholes, it looks like overgrown trees. But when I look at what's happening at home, I see how there are folks that will go down to the rock quarry and they will get loose rocks and fill in the potholes themselves. And to me, the that can be a speculative practice because they're dreaming of, how do I make this road better for the future drivers that are going to drive on this road. Or it might even be like, my aunt has sent letters to the city for years about everything. It doesn't matter if something's wrong, she's going to write a letter or an email to the city to try to get things fixed. And even though they might tell her no over and over and over again, or they might ignore her letters and never respond at all. That's a speculative practice to keep doing it anyway to get those futures, to try to get towards that future that you want to see for your side of town. I think about also the ways that a lot of, and I'm talking a lot about home because that's kind of where my research is going. But there's very few black teachers that are there and there's just historical reasons for that. But there was one black school on the west side of town, once integration happened. They closed the black school, they bust the children to the white schools because the white parents did not want their kids coming to the west side. And so when that happened, a lot of black teachers lost their jobs and then the ones that did stay were just moved out and spread out. And then when they retired, there were no black teachers to replace them. Especially considering that in order for you to get your education degree, you have to go to an education school and the nearest ones are going to be about 45 minutes to an hour away, which doesn't seem like a lot. But if you live in a poor small town, it's far. So I think about how rather than, they don't have any black teachers in the schools, but they try to make educational things for kids outside. So vacation bible school, super huge for us when we were younger. And to me that can be a speculative practice because yes, they were tying it to because they got the funds to do the vacation bible school thing. But it was a speculative practice to teach us about history and things within that space as well because they're trying to create features where the students who go there, the kids who go there, can know about their histories. Can prepare for better futures because they have that education and so that's what I think about when I think of those speculative moments. It's protesting, it's creating programs, it's filling in potholes. It's, I don't know, like helping or making space for kids to dream all of that can be those speculative moments that happen in everyday life. >> Wow, I love that so much. I love that broad definition and also the ways in which you sort of reference some of the history where these larger social forces that impact our social identities, racial oppression, gender oppression. How learning that past history becomes part of a speculative practice or a futures practice. And I'm thinking about, in this course, how there's a lot of work around reclaiming stories and how important it can be to look to the past to help envision what comes for the future. And I'm wondering if either a collective level or more of an individual level, if you have thoughts about that? >> Yeah. So because my work is an afrofuturism, one of the things that I had to do initially, was to define afrofuturism for myself. Mainly because there's like 80 bazillion definitions of afrofuturism, because it's such an open space that people have used to reclaim some of that history and some of that past. And so when I define afrofuturism, I define it as this cultural aesthetic where black authors, and that's broadly construed, I think of authorship and text is not necessarily just writing books. But black authors, they create these speculative texts that center black people in an effort to reclaim and recover the past to counter negative and elevate positive realities that exist in the present and to create new possibilities for the future. And so in that bounded definition, the past is essential, like, you have to have that in order to think about what that future could look like. And so when I think about like my work, I often go back to like a Nazi stories which are like super old. But they tell me so much about my history and the way that black people think and do and engage in community? And so like I look to those practices and I'm like, well why can't we have some of these practices in the future where we have these spaces where we can reclaim ourselves and join together in community and no one's going to kill us for it. Like that. That's in the speculative practice. And I think that being able to look into the past has also shown me that, I mean, the world right now is kind of sucks and the world back then also kind of sucked in some places. But even in those spaces there was joy. And so when I think about the future, I'm like, there's there can be joy in that pain, there can be joy in the future too. And so I think that being able to look on the past has helped me to see the possibilities for the future. mm that's so powerful, I love that so much. And I'm thinking two things that you said are like sparking things for me, one was thinking about authorship really broadly like across media, across format. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on that as well as if you could speak to the work that you've done with Black Girls in particular and a lot of your research, the ways that story ng can become collective, that future dreaming can become collective. Yeah. So the authorship thing, I feel like a lot of times I think definitions are weird to me, I like to expand them and play with them. But author is like, they have published this novel, therefore you are author and I'm like, well you can be an author if you create anything, can't you? Like it doesn't have to necessarily be a published book in Barnes and noble or something. It can be like I wrote something in my journal, I am an author. I created a Tiktok video. I am a creator, I am an author. I wrote a tweet, I'm an author. Like I feel like there are so many different avenues towards authorship that I think that we need to think a little bit more about. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's even out there for a whole bunch of people to see if I write something down if I create something, I'm an author of something. And so that's what I think about when I think about the broadness of authorship. And it can also be talking about stuff like right now in this conversation, we are both authors storytellers, like so that's kind of how I think about authorship. And then I was like, my work with Black Girls and collective storytelling. So I feel like nothing is ever new, so I'm going to start by saying that and I think about when I was little and I would tell stories and then my sister would join in and she would tell part of the story and then like, my mom would add something and my brother would add something and like, it's actually something we did like last weekend, all my family was together and we were in the car and my sister started a story and then I got to say the next line and then my son said the next line and it was just like that practice coming back again where I'm just like we've always told stories together and that's just like how I was raised and it's not because like, my family is weird or different, like most of the families that I know that I have come in contact with just tell stories together, whether it's like someone if we're recounting our day that maybe somebody coming and you remember that thing that happened and like, so then they're they're co authoring this narrative with you. And so in my work with Black girls, what I realized is that so I guess the backtrack what I did with black girls, I helped them to even help them. I didn't really, I facilitated it, I was there. I was like, I did not help, but I facilitated a workshop was an afro futurist writing workshop where I had the goal of like, let's talk about social justice issues using like, sci fi or fantasy or horror, whatever genre. And the writing process didn't really happen until like, the last two days of our two month workshop, the rest of it was talking and like, kind of authoring stories in real time of like, and what if you did this in your story? Like, one girl would come up with an idea and say, well, I'm thinking that in my story, it could be so in one of them, the United States is separated into those who have privilege and those who do not and privilege on a very wide scale, And she was just like, and then it's cut down the middle, and there's only one way to the other side and one way out, and like, then they're like, and you could do something where you have, like, a cool name, like, maybe like a name and a different language for the the oppressed side, because like, certain languages are oppressed, and then she's like, I like that, and then they're like, and maybe the main character, well you have to have the main character has to be you. And she's like, yes, that's right. It has to be me. And then like, but it was like that kind of process of like she had an idea and then the other girls would come in and be like, and maybe this and maybe this and then some got dropped like not every idea made it into the final story but some did. And so it was like, yes, it was her story. But it was all of our story collectively because of all the ideas that were shared that helped her to foreground this dream that she was having this this world that she was creating. And so it reminded me of like the storytelling practices that I had the stories that I hear when I'm out and like people are co telling stories together. It was that same type of process because I do think that no one's stories alone. Like even even the authors that have their books and their Barnes and noble. Like when you read that acknowledgement pays you realize there's like 40 people that helped this book come to fruition. And so I think that when I do my work with black girls or when I do my work elsewhere, when I'm just listening to folks like stories are often co authored or multi authored Because like I said, no one stories alone, a lot of things are just collaborative and connected and I think that's what it's supposed to be mm, That makes so much sense to me. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that That makes me wonder about like there's some large movements in the scholarly world around site black women and there's different conversations now about how we give attribution and thinking of creative comments. I'm thinking of the way the way that any creativity manifests. There was little nas X's song, Old town Road that came out, you know, a few years ago and there was a great video of how this song was created and there were so many different people who created the B and like did different aspects or helped share it out and where the influencer and I'm wondering what do you think about the idea of authorship and and as a speculative practice? What what would be a more I don't know like authentic way of acknowledging this, that none of our creations are in a vacuum and avoid. I think that's hard in like academic spaces where we're supposed to like you have to author things to keep your job or something. And like I find that I've had like a lot of ethical self conversations and conversations with some close friends about like what does it mean to like for instance in my articles, there's excerpts from like the girls stories or from things that they were talking about and I'm like, what does it mean to not have them as authors on this. But then also like going back in the people they were minors and like also like that's an ethical thing as well. Like do they have consent to become these authors? And what if they change their minds later? Like how does that process work? And so that's just something I've been vacillating back and forth with. But what I have loved is there are several like research collaborative zones that published together and there's no like name attached to its the something something collaborative and then there's the paper and that has been something that I really loved and I really want more people to do it. So like it's been really fun to see just like how you come together and to do that to actually create something and not put your name as author whatever year it is to like just say this was me and a group of my people writing together and then like in the acknowledgements sections at the bottom or a note at the bottom, it will say the collaborative includes these people. That has been something that I really loved recently. And then there's been like some sister is calling me sorry, she's on my that list where like they can call you even if you have your your focus thing on she's on it. But I have liked the collaborative zai, I've liked how some people are using the acknowledgement sections which are often used just to be like here all the people that gave me money to do my work. Instead it's like this paper would not have come into being without the, I don't know the advice of this person. This person reading it for me before I sent it. Doing an acknowledgment section without acknowledging just the money but the people. >> Yes. >> And that has been something that's also been helpful because sometimes yes, you are the one that's writing it, but, before it gets to that publication stage, there are so many other things. And so I've appreciated like that type of work as well. I know when I'm doing publications, I tried to site people whenever and I don't like do the stuff he talks I often just kind of talk like this. [LAUGH] But, I try to site as many folks and cause I got this idea from this person or if you haven't read this this and this, please read them and I have the books on the slide or something. So people can know this is where I'm getting these ideas from and don't just read my little synopsis of what they said go and read their work, because I think that that's also important too. When you're thinking about that collaborative authorship is like, they may not be in the room with you, but you read their work to help you to conceptualize whatever it is that you're writing. And so shouting them out, in my work I kind of have been blending story and research recently, but I'm the people that have helped me to think through things. Their characters, their names [LAUGH] are connected as characters in the work or, they are I don't know entities or beings or things are named after them because, that is another way for me. Yes, they're going to be in my references as well, but for me to honor them, they're also important pieces of whatever stories that I'm creating. And so I feel there's a lot of different ways to do it, and also to name instead of just naming with academics and stuff like that, like people like to do. Name that music video [LAUGH] or that poem, or the blog, or whatever because academic stuff is everywhere [LAUGH] and not just in those very boring scholarly articles. And so citing those folks as well I think is so important to that collaboration, because people get ideas from songs, they get ideas from conversations, name that. And so I think that that's important as well, but I also understand the difficulty in a capitalistic society where you have to put your name on stuff [LAUGH] like that. But, utilizing those acknowledgments, creating those collaboratives, naming everything that has influenced you for a specific idea, citing them no matter where they come from, I think that's important. >> I love that, It feels like a practice of kind of honoring lineage and ancestry whether that's intellectual cultural whatever. Wherever those influences are coming from, and really recognizing that none of us would exist without all the pieces of words and experiences and lives of others who have gone before us. So what we create couldn't have come just from us either. Yeah, and you mentioned briefly, the ways in which your own scholarly work has started to blend genre and format and embrace story and your dissertation was a great example of that. I wonder if you could talk a little about how you think about kind of resisting or rewriting those constructions, those boundaries. >> So how I think about it, I'm like yes, do it. [LAUGH] I'm like I feel as though we've been restricted from opening up how we share our knowledge. I think it's like you must talk academically, you must write academically, it's like what does that even mean? [LAUGH] So I turned my dissertation into a book and I talked a little bit more about that. And in it, I say that a lot of the ways that we are taught to write it's very eurocentric based on just these very old ideas of what academic writing should look like or could look like. But in doing so there was an erasure of some of the other cultural histories where academic knowledge looks differently. And so the example that I gave as the Nazi stories where, in specific African cultures, there were Rios. And those Rios would talk to folks, they would observe the world, and look and see what animals were doing [LAUGH] they would look and see how people communicate to each other. And then from that, they would write these things down sometimes as just like these are the things that are happening and sometimes through story. And so, they were doing research, they were doing the same things that we were doing the interviewing, looking and observing, all those same things that we do as researchers they were doing. And when they were writing it, they sometimes wrote it as story. Not as this boring essay or something like that because they wanted it to be something, that not accessible to more people because I feel like that's a weird word to use for writing. I feel it's accessible, people just don't want to read because it's boring. And [LAUGH] I mean, I've read some of my own writing and I'm like please don't make me read this again. >> [LAUGH] So true. >> So I think about that and I think about what the Rios did, and so many indigenous storytellers did and do with so many other cultural ancestors and people that are just in the world right now. We observe what's happening in the world and we tell it to others through story, not through these boring essays with the method section or something like that. And so, when I say I'm all for that blending of genres and stuff like that, it's because it's already been happening. We just ignore it in these spaces because it's not prized to something that I don't know, it's not academic enough. And, for me it's like it's not academic according to whom, whose standards have decided what academic is. And so, in my work what I tried to do was to blend that to be like okay, I know that if I write this in a way that I know how to write the academic stuff, I personally am going to hate writing this dissertation. It's going to suck I don't want to do it, that type of stuff. If I write it in a way that's more interesting, and get other people to possibly read it then maybe that'll be something to help that research get out there, but also in a way that's enjoyable for readers. And so, every chapter that's in my dissertation, was read by three of the girls. So I worked with six girls, three of them read the whole thing and another three just read their chapters. And, the fact that I had [LAUGH] 13 and 14 year old girls read my dissertation [LAUGH] >> How cool. >> [LAUGH] And make comments and tell me what they liked and didn't like, that to me meant that I was doing something right. And then I mentioned earlier I don't really have a big, well after me then all my cousins started going to college, but before me, my family was not a college going family. It was all military, and my uncle who was in the marines, he never went to college, he read the book version of it. My aunt she was in the navy she read it, and she was like I had to stop and start when you did the preface with all the academic stuff. But when the story started, she's like I got all of this stuff I saw what you were doing, and that's what I wanted. I don't care I mean, I don't know if I can say that, I don't care what [LAUGH] academic folks think about the work that I did, but I care about what Other folks did like the academics who are the everyday academics that we often ignore. I cared about what they were thinking and the fact that I had like uncles and aunties read it that I've gotten emails from like book clubs and like, yeah, we read your book this month and I'm like, I don't know if many academic books that would be used in a general book club. And so like that to me shows that that blurring is necessary because like if we're not doing that, who's this work for? Is this it for the five of us in our field really care about whatever it is. And if that's the case are we really doing the work? And so for me, it's like getting those ideas out there through story was helpful because there's been a lot more people who enjoyed the reading and didn't have to be like, why are you using all these words and these long attendances. What who was that for? So I love that. >> I love that sense of almost like accountability to the girls in the study, to your relatives in your community. And and it was a very successful strategy. Your book, your dissertation one wonderful award. So clearly that that way of communicating resonates deeply with people. And there hasn't been enough of it as we've moved towards these really like constricted forms of communication. It makes a lot of sense. Makes sense. >> Yeah, there are so like I know there are several like folks who are doing kind of like fictionalized like research, but I think the the difference is that honoring of community. So it's not like just fiction for fiction state to write a novel or something like that. And it's not something that's like, I did this research and I'm basing this fictionalized story. Like the things that the girls say in the book are the things that they said in the workshop. Like I found ways to like blend those things, the characters that are based on mostly black women who influenced my work. Like are the ideas from their books that I was like bringing in there. And so it's like it is fictionalized, but it's also it's very research based in every sense of the word. So like I think that that accountability is important, but also just like honoring the communities that you work with and for is necessary and producing work from and with them that they can also enjoy and make use of and critique and yeah, yeah. Like I was like, I didn't like this part and I'm like okay, but it's the fact that you're writing it in a way because I've read some very dense like academic text where I'm like, I don't think I like this, but I'm not really sure what these words mean, collective place. So I'm just going to ignore it instead. It's like I didn't like this why you put this here. So but I enjoy that because I'm like that's that conversation that's that co authorship because now he is a part of my authorship because as I think about doing this again, I'm like I gotta remember what my uncle said, he said, he didn't like this. >> Yeah and taking those perspectives and moving forward with them and creating with that that shift that we've learned and adapt to adapt it together. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the idea of like windows, doors, mirrors, telescopes because I don't that that's a concept that I hear a lot about in literacy and in K 12 education and I think that it can be really useful when we're talking about stories and we're talking about reclaiming stories or reinventing and reimagining stories for others. >> So I'll start with routine sims Bishop doctor routine sims bishop, I gotta make sure I always make sure it's like put put some respect on her name. She had this groundbreaking article and it was called mirrors, windows and sliding glass doors. And in it she talks about like books can be mirrors where like it reflects the human experience. So that like students or readers or whatever, I think in that in that article was talking about students but where readers can kind of see themselves like and reflected back in that book. And then the other part is like that books can be windows, so it may not reflect your individual experience, but it can kind of offer views into like the experiences of others. So usually people will just say mirrors and windows, but also there's like the sliding glass doors that you mentioned and that one is how literature can be kind of like, it can make space for you to kind of like walk through the printed text and then like become part of that world created by the author. So it's kind of like, you can see yourself in books, you can see others in books and you can also like through these words, learn so much become a part of the world of that character or that text and that's used, that's used so much that I feel like people have kept Sims Bishop's name off of things sometimes, but she was the first one, she wrote it in like 1990 something like that. And so I think that with her idea, she's just saying that all of our stories can be one or the other mirrors, it can be windows and sliding glass doors. And then people have added like Debbie Rees has added curtains saying that like sometimes with indigenous people, there are things about our lot or things about their lives that we don't want people to see. So that part, she's saying that like indigenous folks, they will put curtains over certain stories and certain texts because it's not for everyone and that's okay and then I talked about telescopes a little while ago because there was something for me that was kind of like missing from the mirrors and the windows because I'm like, well when I look at I look at a character that's a wizard in a book. I don't necessarily like they may be a black girl, but I don't see myself. I don't have like that type of magic. Black girl magic. Yes, but I don't have sparkly things coming out of my fingers. So like and so there was just something that was missing with all the like sci fi and stuff that I read. I was like, I don't see that metaphor working as well for me in this context. And so I was being a nerd with my son looking at telescopes and we were reading about them and how like they have, there's like different types of telescopes and then there's like the parts of the telescope and we're like telescopes used these curved mirrors that kind of gather light from the nice guy and then make these far away objects appear nearer. And I was like, I like that as part of a metaphor because it's not necessarily seeing myself but a possibility of self, it's gathering from the future and making that future seem closer to me. And so that's why I like telescopes kind of came in because I was nodding out with my son and then I was like, I like this. And then there was the different parts of parts of the telescope where I was just like, well like we need these telescopes because we can't see that far. Our eyes are not capable and I was like in the future or in these other worlds were not capable of seeing those futures. Our eyes are not able to do that so we need that help. So these books act as these telescopes to help us to see. And then I thought about like there was forget what it was called. It was like these refract ear's and reflectors and like the refractor I think was like the long to part of the telescope and then the refract reflectors were like the multiple mirrors in there that kind of holds it. And so I was like the books kind of act as that like act as that refractor because it holds those visions of futures within the pages and blocks the dust of the world from getting in. So like that was love this. I love this metaphor. Yeah. So that was my my metaphor because I was you know, I was like this this makes more sense to me because like I said, like when I'm looking at these things like I can't step into the world of I don't know, like a big tech mech world where they're fighting aliens, I can't step into that world. I mean I can use my imagination to step into it, but like there's no reality to where I can like step into that space but with a telescope. But this book is telescope. I can see the possibilities of a future with this technology where we fight back against whatever, like and so that's kind of where it came from. Yes, I love this. I love I love that idea of the telescope as this space of possibility that stories can open and and I wonder if you could talk a little bit more. I'm going to ask sort of a more And death question about that. So going back to the piece that you published in 2021 where you talk about some of these things, I desperately need visions of black people thriving, emancipating the fantastic with black women's words, you talk about these ideas and the ways in which white imaginations have trapped and omitted and made a dark other of black women and girls and you talk about the urgency of speculative futures and these spaces of possibility, these stories of possibility. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah, so I'll start with I'll start with me when I was little, I read a lot of speculative fiction and it mostly was like, like the Hero in the Crown, the Alex Mack series and more stuff like that. And with the exception of cassie, I hardly ever saw black girls in any of it. So I was just like, so we can have aliens coming down from the sky, we can have magic and dragons, we can have all this super advanced technology, but black people suddenly just don't exist anymore. And then it became like, I started watching like the movies, so like I watched like the harry potter movies and Star trek and like we got like Lando and Star Wars still like, so we don't really exist. Very they're cool. There's very like, there's very limited folks of color in these futures, and like there's very limited representation of like, folks of color who are wizards, and if they are, there's like, stereotypical like they're either they're there to kind of like uplift the main character or there to be like the joking sidekick or something like that, but like, they never have their own story, they're always just fodder for someone else's. And so when I think about like when I had said that white imaginations have omitted or trapped or made a dark other of black women and girls, it was just the fact that like we are apparently either trapped or erased from what we're trapped in the past erased from the future omitted from the future, something has happened that prevents us from making it there. And it's usually in stories that were written by, cause like I read a lot of like the older older books, like Asimov stuff and Gibson stuff like that. And I'm just like dang, like we could have all this and not us, like why why don't we exist? And so when I say it's the job of I think cause that one was geared towards educated, but when I say like when it's people's responsibility to think of those speculative futures and to provide those stories, I was saying that like figure out ways to showcase the diversity of human life that will exist in the future instead of erasing us from it. And so I'm like no matter what people's stories are, like we're going to be here and that's okay. And I'm not saying that they have to like write a black character as their main character or something like that, but if you're going to have one, like what's their story to like, do we see them go home? Like that was something that had a problem within like y romances. It's like there was a black best friend or something like that, we never saw their parents, they never had a home life, it was just like, I've seen you, I I never go to your house, like you come to mind, but I never go to your house, that's not where I go. And so it's just like, in the same vein, when I think about secular stories, like, it seemed to me when I was reading, especially like, a lot of the older, like, sci fi things was like, well the future is like the white person's house and we're not allowed to go there and, like, invite us to be there alongside. And so that's that, to me is what I was kind of, talking about with, like, providing those stories that challenge. And there are like, so many black authors who are already like, doing that work. But for me, when I was talking about with teachers, it was like, remembering that, like, I taught there in high 4 51 1984 Brave New World, and in all of those, I'd be like, I'm not in there and not in that future, I don't know where black people went, but we didn't get to go there. So like, that, I think is kind of more so what I was talking about in that piece, that makes a lot of sense. The ways that the kind of canon, especially in schools is like perpetuating these stories, right? And then I wonder how you think about and the work you do with teachers, encouraging disruption of that cycle and encouraging students to be co creators, co authors in those spaces. Yeah. The first thing you often do with teachers is have to have the conversation about the fact that speculative fiction is real literature. And I wish I didn't have to have that conversation. But if we look at the Canon, it's a lot of like drama, it's a lot of realistic. We got some epic poems in there, but only certain ones from like, way, way before, many of us were on this Earth. And so it's like a conversation of OK, y'all speculative fiction is real literature. It's a difficult literature, even though some people are like, well that's for the fun stuff. And I'm like, have you ever like, jumped into a sci fi novel with its own language or a fantasy novel with its own language? Like, you have to figure out like, what is this word that you're using that you don't explain? And I have to figure it out, or there's a whole new world and like, life system that is set up a social so system that is set up in these worlds that you have to figure out, like, how was it similar or different from the world in which I live. And so there's so much rich content in speculative fiction, if you know how to teach it. And I think some people like, shy away from it because they read the words and they're like I don't know what these words mean, we're not we're not doing this. But you can show students the power of language, you can show them the power of history and making connections. Like how do we get to this future? How is this fantasy world? Because a lot of like sci fi and fantasy is based off of things that are happening in the world in the moment that it was written. So it's like what was happening in the world that time that created this imaginary world or this futuristic world. How do we get there? How do we create this magic system if I created a magic system what things would I have to think about? And so that's usually my first conversation is like all right, let's dig into how this can be real literature because that's always an interesting thing. The next thing that I usually do is I walk them through what I I forget where I get this term from. I think it was Susan who's a sci fi scholar and he talks about like sci fi being a thought experiment. And so I take the teachers through a speculative thought experiment. So I asked them like okay if you could change one thing Or actually no before I do that. It's like list, give me a list of like 5 to 10 issues that are happening in the world right now that you think need to be fixed in the next 10 years. And then give them some time they write them down and then I'm like okay, so I need you to pick one of those 10 of things that need to be fixed in the next five years or else something really bad is going to happen. And then they'll pick their one or they like complain about picking one whichever happens first. And then from there, I'm like okay, what happens if we don't fix this problem in the next 10, 50 then 100 years? And so, they have them kind of think through like, what would happen if we don't fix it? And then I have them go through, okay, if you had unlimited resources, no one was going to tell you no money was not an object, government was not going to get in your way, how would you fix this problem? And then they come up with their things, some people come up with magic, some people come up with new tech, some people say we need a whole different world so they make fantasy worlds all of that. And then, I have them think about the repercussions of their creation. So based on whatever they created this new world or otherwise, what could go wrong? What are the things that could go wrong? And then I have them think through, okay, how would you fix that? And so, and then I also have them think through like how have others already tried to fix this? So, once again go into the past because none of your ideas are new, [LAUGH] and people have been trying to fix this for a long time. And then I have them kind of use that as a foundation to a possible story. And so depending on how long I'm working with them, sometimes the story will come out of it, sometimes it'll just be like the start of an idea of a story or it might be just a discussion of what their story could be. But I have them walk through that process to show them all the different avenues that you could take with a speculative story of, you have to think about what others have done. So that's that co collaboration of talking or not even necessarily talking but thinking with ancestors, thinking with those who have come before. I do have them talk with each other, talk in pairs or groups of three as they're doing this because I want people to challenge them. So they'll think about what could go wrong and I'm like all right now, talk to other people, have them tell you other things that could go wrong. Because sometimes we're so in our heads about, we can fix it this way without thinking about the repercussions for others. So, I have them talk to each other there, so that's where you get that collaborative space in there as well. And then as they're writing, I'm not like that person's, well, you missed a comma here, I'm not that person at all, I'm like your story is your story. If you want to do all the grammatical stuff later, that's perfectly fine, but get it out first. And then I have them share their stories with each other and people start asking questions. And so, all of that work is showing them it's very collaborative in that sense, but it's also showing them just the rigor of a sci-fi story because all of these things happen in so many sci fi, fantasy and horror stories. We have to think about the repercussions of our technology or we have to think about how people might use magic for evil deeds or whatever. And so, I have them kind of think through that and also you can tie it to history, you can tie it to, depending on what it is, it can be tied to science, it can be tied to geometry and math, it can be tied to English all of those different. So it's not just like a collaboration within that space, not just a collaboration with people that have come before, but a collaboration across disciplines that you can use with speculative fiction. And so that's how I try to kind of do that work with teachers, just to show them one how collaborative it is, but also to walk them through the rigor of it. Because some of them, and it's not on them, we don't teach it [LAUGH] as teacher educators, they take Shakespeare courses, but they don't take sci-fi courses. So, it's just there's a lot of things that go into that, but because of that, that's kind of the process that I usually use when I'm working with them. >> I love that, thank you so much for outlining that, it's really powerful to hear and beautiful to see the flow of the process. because I can imagine each step like the questions or the issues that arise. And it just seemed brilliant to me that in engaging with folks about how speculative fiction and speculative futures can be used in education, they're doing it while they're thinking about it. Of course, yeah. >> You just say you can do it, then it's like, well of course anyone can do it, but how? And I'm like, here's how. >> We're doing it right now, yeah. Yes, yes. And it feels like there's so much critical thinking, there's so much reflectivity on the ideas and that those two components are kind of essential for us right now. As skills, as we're educating folks and being educated ourselves, but also in terms of the big challenges that we are actually facing in this current moment. And I wonder if you could say a little bit more about, how you see developing those two pieces that critical and reflexive and the self reflexive being important? >> Yeah, so critical reflectivity to me is one of the most important things, we have to think about how we ourselves got to this moment of being. And so, I do that a lot in the work that I do, I have my little, we have those position [INAUDIBLE] sections, but I use that as my reflectivity sections. So I'm like, I did this work because here was for instance, I mean, I had an article published earlier this year that was on how black girls consider their weirdness to be normal. And it's not weird, it's just who they are and I tied it into this whole idea of who gets to be a nerd and who doesn't? And kind of also tying it into black fan spaces or fandom spaces in general and how it's a lot of times hostile to black folks who try to enter into those spaces cosplay and stuff like that. And in my reflectivity statement, I talked about, I had my first encounter with racism and span spaces when I was 6, maybe 5. And I went to a party and I wanted to be wonder woman and everyone was like, no because I went as wonder woman. But at the time all the, I was 5 or 6, you can't just wear the little bikini thing. So I had a little shirt and had a white body because they didn't have one with a black body and I wore that because well, it's the only thing that's there. And I went to the party and everyone was like, no, you should have just been stormed. You can't be Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman doesn't look like you, you should be stormed. I don't know how many people told me I need to be stormed, [LAUGH] like parents and kids. And I was real sad because, but I really like Wonder Woman and I really wanted to be Wonder Woman. And I talk about that instance and I say, doing this work in this article is important. How I got to this work is because of the experiences that I've had with fan spaces, with nerd spaces. Where I've been asked like, if I say I watch Anime, someone will say, well did you see InuYasha episode 203 and minute 35 not 35 short, minutes 16. What was someone saying? And I'm like, no, [LAUGH] but those are, well, then you're not really a nerd, I'm like cool, okay? And so, I talk about that as kind of this reflexive practice of how I got to this scholarship, or not even just the scholarship in general but that exact paper. And I try to do that for everything that I write, like how did I get here? I have to look back into myself and figure out how I got there. And then I also, when I'm doing my analysis, I'm like, okay, how has who I am, how does that influence what I'm seeing in this? So I know I'm an Afrofuturist, I'm a womanist, that's going to affect. pretty much everything I do. And so I know that when I'm looking for themes in data, or if I'm analyzing conversations, those things are consistently going to be in the back of my mind whether I want them to or not. And so I think about that and I think it's important to consistently think about that. And not necessarily just in terms of research, but I think about, I'm from a small town, I am from a town that most people don't leave. I can go home, I can still see all my friends, all my family still lives there. I also moved away. What does it mean to move away? I do that kind of self work because it's important, because it helps me to see, okay, when I'm thinking about what's going on in the larger world, I automatically go to, well, it wouldn't matter back home. [LAUGH] And I think about that. And so I have to kind of think about, what does that mean for me to say, well, this doesn't matter at home, because at home they're just trying to figure out like what the kids are going to do without shooting at each other or selling drugs or something? And so I find that reflexive peace to be important in our current moment, because I think that we all have to think about who we are, where we come from, and how that's going to influence how we think about things. >> Yes. >> Or how we don't. [LAUGH] >> Yes, and that to me is critical. We've talked about creation and creators that, I agree with you, I think it's an innate aspect of sort of birthright of who we are as beings. And the examples you've given with your dissertation or the scholarly world or the nerd policing. That way of thinking is not what's going to help us with climate change or economic inequality, racial injustice, that's not what we need. And it's making me think about how urgent these qualities are needed for leaders of all types, creators of all types, to have that reflexivity and awareness of our positions. And awareness of blind spots as well and where we need to collaborate with other people and invite other people in. So the last, I think, question that I want to pose and then I'll see if there's other thoughts or things you want to circle back to is, kind of going back home, what is the story of someone's life or lived experience that has shaped you growing up? And that could be fictional, that could be a conversation that could be whatever form it takes. >> Yeah, this is a hard one because I'm like, so my first thought was, I got to be a story about my mama. And I was like, hey, maybe my grandpa, but then I was like, my mama again. [LAUGH] So my mom and my grandpa are the two most important people in my life. I'll say my mom's because my mom was in the Air Force when she had me, she retired from the Air Force. And she started a daycare at her house and we lived in Nebraska, because they were on the Air Force base in Nebraska. And then when my mom and dad divorced, my dad took everything and my mom didn't have anything. And we moved in with my grandpa because we didn't have anywhere else to go. And she started working at Head Start for $5 an hour or something like that. After making really decent money as a daycare, was like, she didn't have the degrees, she didn't have any of those things, so she worked at Head Start doing, I don't know if it was food or what it was. And then after a little bit of time with a job somewhere, she started working at Liberty Mutual, she worked three to 11 shift. So I didn't see her on the days when she worked. And she did it because she was only making $5 an hour, she had three kids, and so she needed to get a job that paid her more and Liberty Mutual paid her more. But there was a trade off of not really seeing your kids as often because you had to work to make sure your kids had what they needed. And then she just worked her way up and up, and up, and got degrees along the way because they were like, well, you can't have this job without this degree. It she's like okay, she went to go and get it. And now she is the head of something for a law firm that has international offices and she works with people in Australia, and in Ireland, and in different countries. And I think about her story from Head Start and how she went from nothing, no degrees, not a good job, just a family to wrap around her. Because my grandpa took us in, we all stayed in like one room with a lot of us in that house, but it was just the family wrapped around. So even though I didn't see my mom as much when she took on the three to 11 shifts, I saw my aunties, I saw my grandpa every day, I saw my cousins. So I didn't really know that she wasn't around that much until I was older and she told me. >> Mm-hm. >> And I was like, you're right, I didn't. And so I think that that shaped me growing up because I saw how family wraps around each other, how community wraps around. So I have aunties and uncles and cousins that I don't think are really related to me, but they were family, they wrapped around us, they made sure that we stayed on a good path. There were people down the street where if I did something I knew I wasn't supposed to be doing, Miss Don Don from down the street would call my grandpa or my mom, let them know. So by the time I got home I was in trouble and I didn't even know why they knew. And that shaped my growth because I realized the importance of community, the importance of having that family, that community wrap around you whether it's biological or chosen. And that is something that sticks with me to this day because I think about how my mom wouldn't be where she is without her family there to support her. She wouldn't have been able to. I wouldn't be where I am without my family to support me. My sister called me during this call, I talked to her yesterday for like three hours. [LAUGH] We talk all the time. I have my family that's always there to support me, to help me grow. Like I said earlier, my uncle read my dissertation, my mom did too and my auntie. They have shaped all of who I am. And so I use my mom's story of growth kind of to think about how I have grown because family wrapped around her in that way. They wrapped around me in that same way and so that's kind of how I've grown to be the person that I am now because of that that love that was wrapped around regardless of anything that I did any like yeah they just and even now like they are just so supportive and uplifting and I just know that no matter what I got people in my corner just like my mom did. So thank you for sharing that. I love that so much and there's so much speculative thinking and featuring as part of that story to write of spaces of possibility that love and support can open up for us. Yeah, because it's hard for black girls to dream and like if you can create a space where like I dreamed so much as a young person, I didn't know we were broke. I had no ideas like they created that space where I didn't have to worry about those things. I had that space to dream and think of possibility and read sci fi novels and stuff like that. Like they made that space for me and they loved me enough to allow me to watch my anime shows and we had one tv like like Yeah. >> I love it. Is there anything that we haven't gotten to talk about that feels important to say or to circle back to? >> I mean I think the only thing I'm thinking about right now is the whole story in the self part, that of course is really focusing on. And I don't think I talked a lot about how I storied myself. I talked about how I storied other. >> Yeah, please talk about that. >> So in my dissertation, the main character is me. I based her off of me and some of the things that I saw while I was doing the work with the girls but also things I see in the world. And I think sometimes it's scary to make yourself the main character because when you do that, you open up some stuff. [LAUGH] You have to think about because if you're doing like for real characterization, you can't just say well I'm me, therefore I'm the main character. And I'll just go with it because people may not know you. So you have to delve deeply into what makes this character this character or you you and some stuff that comes up can be hard. I had to think about like the reason why I had such a negative experience with school was because of where I went to school [LAUGH] and how some of those teachers were really mean. And I didn't think about that until starting to write my story. Or if I'm thinking about what's happening in the world, I'm thinking about my positionality in some of the things that are happening. And so I have to actually talk about it versus trying to ignore it as much as possible because it brings panic and anxiety. So I think when I storied myself, it was hard because I had to get to know myself in a way that I had tried to avoid. And so I think for when others are taking this course and they're thinking of storing themselves in whatever way, whether it's speculative, realistic poems whatever. You have to get down to that core of you. And sometimes it can be hard, but it's worth it in the end because I love that story and I love some of the internal work that I had to do because of it. >> Yes, thank you so much. Yeah, it takes a certain strength to look really deeply at ourselves and also with the systems that have shaped us, there can be these realities or truths that are really uncomfortable. And also really generative. Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation and this time together. It's been a huge pleasure. I really appreciate it. >> Thank you for inviting me. Remember I said earlier, I love reading, writing and talking. [LAUGH] >> Yes, we checked all the boxes today.
