So Dirk, what do you mean by integrated thinking and integrated value? Integrated value means that you look at more values than just financials. People have forgotten that there is no economy without society, and no society without the environment. For a long time, that seemed no problem. We lived in an empty world with plenty of ecosystem services. But during the 19th to 20th centuries, the world got full of populations and economies grew exponentially, helped technological progress and the heavy use of fossil fuels and other raw materials. In the fuel worlds, we are at risk of crossing planetary boundaries, after which there is no way back and the planet could become uninhabitable. So we have to change drastically to stay within these boundaries. We also need a more inclusive society where all could freely enjoy the essentials of life. Finally, we have to balance financial, social, and environmental value for integrated value. You miss something a lot effect, if you don't think about it. So Dirk, how do we make sure that people actually do that? A good question, Willem. Free to go into thinking and decision-making, it has to go into reporting as well, but it's not easy. Many ways of extended reporting beyond financials have been tried, but they have to course on yet. How do we get it done? How do we get sustainability into reporting? That's a big question and you're right. There is no universally accepted standard for a sustainability reporting, and it's not for lack of trying people or parties, like through pricing or the integrated reporting council, they have tried and they've made nice frameworks, but they're not mandatory. Companies have been very slow in adopting those frameworks, and that's not surprising because they don't have incentives to improve their reporting and they can just keep their reporting quite meaningless. I mean, if they would report truthfully, it wouldn't look pretty in many cases. So they don't, and they basically just report whatever they want to report and you get some nice pictures and some nice stories, but it's not what you want. So Willem, what would you like to see? Basically, I would want to see an honest assessment of the integrated value, and then not using some checklist, but really looking at company's fundamentals, it's business model, the context in which it operates, how does the company really perform on S and E, and F as well? ABN AMRO Bank has shown how that can be done with it's impact report. They created an integrated P&L with four statements. Below that, the value creation statements, which shows the types of capital created per stakeholder. Second, there is integrated value creation statement, which is for the traditional investors. Third, there's an external cost statements, which shows the negative externalities of company, and that's really unique in showing, "Hey, this is what we're doing wrong," and which most companies tend to avoid. I just think of the carbon footprint of airlines or oil companies. The fourth statement is sustainable development goal statement. So how does the company help or hurt the SDGs? So Willem, why is it so important? Well, first of all, it changes ABN AMRO's own behavior. Building these statements has given them lots of new insights and perspectives on their company. This is a great opportunity for them to really change things and to become more sustainable, integrated into their operations, their finance, their marketing, everything. Second, it also has more systemic implications. If other companies start doing this, everything becomes comparable. You get better decision-making across companies, better decision-making by the stakeholders, because they're better-informed, and stakeholders will be the investors as well, the regulators, because they can all look at companies in integrated way, not just the F, but the S and E as well. So I basically want to see the E and S side becomes developed as the F side. This diagram summarizes the process. We have the S and E row to the F row and then we work from the back column. So the internal company analysis, external company reporting, and then market participants can base their view on that, and then we can achieve our final goal, full transparency on the integrated value of the company. This would make capitalism much more inclusive. Don't you think so, Dirk? I agree, Willem. We are trained to see on the financial value. But what matters is integrated value that stimulates integrated thinking and changes everything. Thank you for listening.
