And so we were aware of debates and discussions going on.
But there were other things that captured more of our attention,
I would say, until early 1976.
76 turned out to be a pivotal year with the guidelines and
also the public debates reached their height in Cambridge,
Massachusetts, during that year.
And then with a bit of a lag in 1977,
I would say that Congress really got involved in this topic.
And I would say there is a tug of war between on rage and the Congress
about who was going to oversee the field of Recombinant DNA research.
>> Right, right, and this was pivotal time for you too as a scholar.
I mean, you finished your PhD in 71, right?
>> Right.
>> And became assistant professor in 75.
Right at the time, I mean,
you were really just launching your career as all of this was happening.
>> Right, right.
>> It's severing to think that this was more than 40 years ago.
I feel fortunate to be alive and to have an intact memory too.
>> [LAUGH] >> And many of the leading figures in this
debate have unfortunately passed away since that time.
>> Mm-hm, but you are here.
>> I am here, yes.
>> [LAUGH] >> I have to admit that I went back and
looked at some documents to try to refresh
my memory of what issues were being discussed.
Who the various players were?
>> Mm-hm.
>> What was happening at NIH?
And what was happening on Capitol Hill in particular.
>> Right, right, so you went to the directors' meeting.
And shortly thereafter, you were asked to join the Rack, right?
>> Yes, I was.
I think it was September of 1976 that I was invited to join the Rack.
And I think that I was able to join for the September 1976 meeting.
I learned afterwards that there had been some trouble getting my
name through downtown as they talked about it.
And that was in the Department of Health Education and Welfare.
It was- >> Now,
the Department of Health and Human Services.
>> Right, it was a Republican administration.
And Caspar Weinberger was Secretary of HEW.
And my name was associated with the Kennedy Institute of Ethics.
But there probably wasn't much love lost between Senator Kennedy and
Secretary of HAW, Caspar Weinberger.
And so I think there was a little resistance to my name, but finally,
it all worked out.
>> Mm-hm, and- >> So then I did have a four year term
on the Rack from 76 through 1980.
And I would say by 1980, the debate was basically finished.
>> Mm-hm, but in 75, so you at the beginning of 70.
No, at the beginning of 76,
you started giving yourself this crash course, you said.
>> Right. >> So
by the time you joined the Rack later in 76,
what was view of Recombinant DNA research.
>> I guess I'm a technological optimist.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And therefore, very open in principle to new areas of biomedical research.
And I think the burden of proof is on those who are arguing
that there's a serious risk or
a serious problem with the research or the technology.
So just to choose some other examples,
some people in the field of biomedical ethics
were concerned about genetic techniques.
For example, there is a lot of discussion about genetic engineering of human beings.
>> Mm-hm.
>> But I thought that was a frightening term, and
what was technically feasible was much less than genetic engineering.
And that gene therapy might be a good thing.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And so, basically, I was open and
I was skeptical of the critics, like Leon Kass or Paul Ramsey.
Similarly, with the new reproductive technologies.
There hadn't been a baby born with the assistance of in vitro fertilization
in the mid 70s.
But I thought if this technique can help people with infertility,
then it's something to be welcomed.