[MUSIC] So we have been talking a lot at the kind of system level about choice and charter schools. But Alex, let's talk a little bit about the teacher perspective on this. So if we think about charter schools, what are the opportunities for teachers relative to charters and what are some of the challenges, both in the broad perspective of being a teacher, but also from the perspective of the Teacher's Union. >> Yeah, and I would say especially in answer to this question to others is that we are talking about charter schools as this sort of model. And in actuality there are, it is not, and there are very different charter schools all over the place and there are some charter schools that I think, and some CMO's that teachers love, in general, love working for and feel very very passionate about. And I think there are other charter schools where teachers are uniformly almost unhappy, which is in some ways very similar to the public system as a whole. I think that in the best charter schools, there is teachers, there is a commitment to adult learning. And there's a commitment to teacher leadership, and teacher voice. And in those schools, there is a great deal of time given to teacher collaboration, to teacher growth. And the one sort of caveat that I would make, even about those places, is that I think one of the things that the charter movement is sort of running up against is that it expects a tremendous amount of its teachers. And that is okay when teachers are 25 and are willing to work until 8:00 every night. When teachers start to have families of their own and start to sort of look at a longer career, those types of hours, that type of commitment becomes very difficult. And so even the best charter schools, I think, are having trouble creating what I would say is sort of a sustainable teacher culture within their schools. At the worst charter schools for teachers the absence of a union I think really hurts. The union is built to ensure a degree of teacher voice, to ensure a degree of teacher protection. And without those structures I think some CMO's and charters very much take advantage of their workforce and they do so to the detriment of their students. >> So, Marv, I want to make sure you get in here. This whole idea of the movement towards unionizing charter schools, which is certainly emergent on the landscape here in Chicago and elsewhere, but what are your thoughts on that piece? >> Well, first of all, I'm proud to say that I've been involved with several unionization efforts and charter school movement and I think your point is very well taken Alex, that the non-unionized charter schools, when they work, they're really the product of kind of benevolent dictatorships, and that's the way I felt at my school. And I think our teachers were happy but that was entirely in my hands. And I don't think that's a safe system to operate. So I've seen the exploitation of charter school teachers in terms of the number of hours they're expected to work that the kinds of responsibilities that are heaped on their shoulders. And one of the by products of that, as I'm sure you know, is the incredible churn that exists in a lot of charter schools, tremendous turnover, especially in the kind of unhappy charter schools that you're describing. And we're talking about serving kids who already have tremendous amount of instability in their lives. So that turnover of teachers adds another level of unhealthiness to their educational experience. >> Describe the school choice movement as sort of a bow between, you might say sort of capitalism and a more sort of social. So then you might think that I would be pro-unionization in the charter school space, and frankly I'm not. I'm not sure that that is the answer. I think the answer lies in this notion of accountability to innovation with the core being student learning. And I'm not sure that the notion of protecting adults in a framework like that is one that necessarily. Adds to those goals at the end of the day, because I think what happens is you then roll into this bureaucracy and calcification model where people are not necessarily focusing on what the, their work and the goal is, but on protecting themselves from the organization. So I have mixed feelings, but I'm not so much on the fence in terms of I don't think that a union movement in charter schools is going to be, at the end of the day, helpful for improving student learning. >> You want to add to that, Bill? >> This is a great panel. >> [LAUGH] >> I mean, it really is. And just in terms of thinking and you've got people coming at it and arguing against the positions that they've long held in their professional minds. Because we're thinking about things in these complicated ways, so I I agree with Orrin in terms of, innovation is not safe. >> Right. >> You know? By doing something new and interesting and out there is not safe. I also agree with Marv in that it disgusts me when teachers are mistreated. >> Mm-hm. >> It's not right. So I think I would kind of. You know, maybe benevolent dictatorship is the term, maybe it's leader. >> [LAUGH] >> Or community leader, right? I think when it's working, it's works well. When it's not, it's really bad. >> Just as there are charter schools, and there are charter schools. >> Yeah. >> It's a collection of very strange bedfellows. >> [LAUGH] >> Yeah. >> There are Unions and there are Unions. >> That's right. >> And I think we would all agree that there have been serious abuses on the part of Unions >> Mm-hm. >> In the way they've operated and the way they've actually constrained innovation and good outcomes for students, but now when I look at some of the union contracts that unionized charter schools have created, they don't look like the traditional union charters. And I think that's >> That's fair. 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