Joining us is Bill Wake, a 15 plus year veteran of Agile and development management. And a major contributor and thought leader in this space. Thanks for joining us Bill. >> Thanks, Alex. >> Let's talk about estimation. Are you a no estimates guy, or a planning poker shark? What are your views on the puts and takes and kind of triggers for win estimation and how estimation makes sense for a team? >> Yeah, I'd probably say I'm closer to no estimates in a lot of ways than getting too focused on the estimates. I'm planning on the invest model, and the e there is for estimable, meaning we can estimate it. But I see a lot of teams that get very focused on the estimate part and not so focused on the other things I think matter a lot more. So I kind of want to hold the estimates pretty loosely and not get Too tied up in it. I think in real life, what I see with stories and understanding, our understanding has a lot more variants than the estimates do. And then a lot of time estimates kind of get in these weird, games I guess is the right phrase for it, that we're playing a game about estimates and values and we're not really trying to measure something in software. And if the game is, I only have three months for you to do this and the reality is it's going to take you six, beating you down, let's say three months. So I can check the box, and say, we're going to make it. It doesn't really help anybody. At least as far as getting better estimates [LAUGH]. >> And what do you think, I mean, one of the things that >> We talked about sometimes, being a, or a job that has to be done somehow, estimates or otherwise it's prioritization to understanding, how much value I describe to a story versus how >> You know? I thought this was a quick thing, but what do I know? I'm not implementing it. How do you see doing that job if not with estimates? Are there other approaches that work better? >> Well, the primary one I like is that we can. We can spend a lot of effort to split things down so that we can try and divide out what are the most important things to get out of this, and what are less important things. And you know if we can set up a delivery cycle where Things come out all the time, and we can quickly find out the most important things for the various stories, get those together, get them delivered, and move from there. Early on we've got a picture of how fast things are coming through, weather they're valuable or not, and then from there on it's just Kind of extending with whichever next piece makes the most sense. You know I like that quick cycle and then I can think in terms of not so much estimating as measuring and saying you know if I put the requirement in today it comes out on average three days later. Well, I can plan with that at that point. And my estimates aren't so much forward looking. They're looking backward but they're looking in the context of what we're really been doing with things. >> So [INAUDIBLE] some great ideas about how to deal with the job of prioritization and using estimates versus not using estimates, how to be effective very practical advice. Thanks Bill.