Dr. Simon, it's great to have you here today. Hello, good to see you. So, we're here to talk about first and second-wave feminism and can you talk a little bit about first-wave feminism, what it did and what it was about? Certainly. First I should say I'm talking only about the United States. First-wave feminism technically began in 1848 in a little town in upstate New York called Seneca Falls when a group of women, mostly middle and upper-middle class white women, who all without exception had been active in the abolitionist fight got together to say, "Isn't it time we fought for ourselves also?" And the goals of that group, again, all of whom had been abolitionists, was to make it possible for women to become citizens in the United States vis-a-vis especially the political process and also regarding the courts and the law. The legal condition of women was still pretty terrible in 1848; an inability to own property unless one was either single or widowed. Custody of children, if there was separation and divorce, was given to men at the time, just the opposite of what often happens now. Women could not own separate bank accounts, again, unless they were widowed, and they could if they were single if their brothers and fathers permitted it. So, there were just a broad range of legal and political prohibitions that made it hard for women to act as independent agents on their own behalf. The movement took from 1848 to 1920 to achieve the vote for women. By the 19th Amendment of 1920, all women in the age of majority who had reached the majority age were permitted to vote. And to own property? Yes. By 1920 there were other laws that had made that possible and one could initiate divorce by 1920. And the custody of children? That had flipped from men being the default recipients of custody. That had flipped by about 1910 and that's a longer story partly because of the Progressive Movement's work on child welfare issues. So, and then we have this thing we call a second-wave. Right. The second-wave emerged, maybe erupted in the late 60s and 70s and extended until about the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980. I would say that was the probably death knell of the second-wave of the women's movement. The second-wave was much broader in focus. The second-wave was focused on trying to reduce the big disparity in pay at work for women who were doing the same work as men for less pay. It was also focused on domestic violence. It was focused on reducing rape and sexual assault. It was focused a little later on reducing incest in families. It was focused on finding childcare resources, hopefully, with federal help. We're still in that struggle, but it was an effort to mobilize childcare at a reasonable price so that women who wanted to work could work. In both the first-wave and the case of the first-wave and the second-wave, Dr. Robertson, one has to recognize that there was a very large backlash against feminists waves, certainly among men who preferred the privileges of patriarchy, but also among women who, there were a significant number of women who found that the women's movements were troubling to them and maybe threatening what they perceived as their privileged place in families, which is an argument that continues on. So, reproductive rights have been an important issue all the way through this? Absolutely. In fact, reproductive rights was not part of the written agenda or legal agenda of the first-wave. However, the first-wave inspired people like Margaret Sanger here in New York City to create Planned Parenthood and to create a very important dialogue around the question of whether or not women should be able to control their reproductive lives. For a long time, doctors didn't think so and husbands didn't think so with some wonderful exceptions. So, you've talked about first-wave and second-wave, and we're now in a third-wave around Me Too which has to do with sexual violence and in some ways, has to do with issues of economic justice. Yes, absolutely. Actually, John, I think we're now in a fourth-wave. There was a third-wave which got less attention but which I think was very important, that erupted in the mid-80s among, especially young women who were very interested in rising faster in corporate worlds, who were very interested in having healthier requirements around what beauty requires. So, for example in a popular sense, the third-wave gave us women who wear sneakers to work. Also, the explosion of women in the mid-80s going into medicine and into law which had begun in trickles earlier. But the big numbers didn't appear till the mid-80s and I think that's part of third-wave feminism. Also, the third-wave, I think emerged artistry, aesthetics, design, makeup, costuming as well as humor in a way that I think invites the world in in a more imaginative way than we did in the second-wave. So, I rejoice in the greater levity without taking away from the seriousness of purpose. I think there's a more holistic approach to persuading people to take women seriously. So, talk a little bit about where you think we are in this fourth-wave. Well, I would say the fourth-wave is right now having to join all sorts of other movements and just trying to save our democracy. That's what I think we're doing right now. We're still working on equal pay for weaker work, we're fighting to defend reproductive rights, we're fighting to reduce domestic violence, and those are ongoing battles because I think patriarchy remain strong. Thanks very much for being with us. Thank you.
