Yeah, so, my research definitely is influenced by. Shaped by my lived experience. So, having been a first gen college student. A college graduate, my mom did have some some credits. So, she had some of the college experience. It was pretty much I was on my own when it came to researching colleges. Picking colleges to apply to organizing myself to fill out college applications. And recognized how much it mattered in that process. Now that I looked back, I recognize how much it mattered in that process. That the adults around me provided support or did not provide support. So, I went to catholic school for many years. Did not get along much with nuns who didn't like people to ask questions. And, while I was OK student, I was never in the honors track. And it was because of my attitude, right? And so, because of that, because I didn't take the PSAT. Because they didn't think I needed to. I didn't actually aspire to go to someplace like Harvard. Until my senior year, my SAT score came in. And at that point then, everyone snapped to attention. And started advising me to shift my focus from UMass Boston. Towards some of the more selective schools. So, expectations of the adults around. Kids make a huge difference in what expectations they themselves form. So, these lived experiences generated hypotheses. Which I've used my training as an economist to test and to then shape into policy. Hail program, Michigan, provides students with a upfront guarantee. That if they get into Michigan, they will get free tuition fees for four years. Now, several elements of that are important upfront. They hear about this in September. Well, before the application deadlines. So, before they decide about where to apply. They know that Michigan will be giving them free tuition and fees. That's a guarantee, they don't have to fill out. The financial aid forms to trigger this guarantee. It is an unconditional guarantee. If they get in, they will get the money. I launched this program with the university seven years ago now. We tested out various approaches informed by research. And, this program served to triple the application rate. And more than double, the share of low income students. Who chose to enroll at the University of Michigan in our sample. Now, to sort of back up from that. We have a very complicated financial aid system in the US. So, colleges in theory very cheap for low income students, even elite colleges. But it depends on filling out a series of forms. And then hearing about the actual cost of college after you've applied. And after you've been admitted to schools. Which is quite late in the process. If you're concerned that you're not going to get in at all. Or you're not going to get aid. So, my research and that of many of my colleagues had shown. That the complicated system was a deterrent for low income students. And underrepresented minorities in applying to an attending colleges. So, I thought it was, when I was asked by the university. To work with them was Al Franzblau in particular. He was the budget provost at the time. When he asked me to collaborate with them on trying. To get more low income students into the university. We had a body of research to build on. And so we use that to inform the design of the program. The upfront, the guarantee. It makes the process less risky for students. I don't think going to college should be a dangerous, risky proposition for students. And over the past few decades, it's become that as tuitions have gone up. Because public investments and universities have gone down. Low income students are dependent on the financial aid system. That is difficult to navigate. That seems to, it feels like it uses every opportunity. To kick people out of eligibility through a series of audits, arcane procedures. And if you don't end up pushing all the right buttons. There goes your education and if you take on too many loans. You can be faced with a pretty difficult time after college as well. In my daily work, in my public persona. My scholarly persona is interwoven with my first gen persona. Is interwoven with my feminism and it's just, it's all one package. I tried for a while on Twitter to have separate, personal and professional feeds. And it was an utter failure, because who I am is who I am. That I tell my students when they're asking for a career advice. I say the most important thing is to work with people you like and respect. And everything else will follow from that. So, it might be that you people you start working with. So, I started my career as a union organizer. I started working with the people I had volunteered with as undergraduate at Harvard. So, I got to Harvard and the people I gravitated towards that I was most comfortable with. Were the folks who worked at the university. And lived in the area as opposed to the students. And they were forming a union at the time. So, I volunteered with them and then when I graduated. They hired me on to work with them full time. And that was just about, I was drawn to these folks. They were charismatic. They were smart, they were good. And that's kind of been how I've chosen where to be. And who to work with, since then. Academia has an excess of smart, has a lot of smart people. What it doesn't have an excess of, is good people, nice people. And so, no **** has been my credo when it comes to finding people to work with. And then eventually hiring people to work. I'm a, I dig away, I chip away and try to make progress. So, sometimes transformation would be a long process. So, I get on Twitter and other places, I get hassled for being a gradualist. And not proposing or supporting the necessarily the most radical approach. But basically I want to get it done. However, it can get done. I think I learned this from the union work. Where basically, we did relational organizing, face to face organizing. It wasn't about advertisements or flyers. It was about meeting one on one with people. And, that's how we built up the organization, was one person at a time. And each person was very important for getting. To the point where we had a union that could transform. The work lives of 4000 people on campus. But you get there chipping away at it. And grinding away at it, bit by bit. I believe there are some things you can do. That make a huge difference in people's lives. But might not cost much for government. So, the hale program is an example. So, in theory, University of Michigan gives a free ride to all low income students already. And so, the hale program doesn't promise these students. That we make this commitment to anything they weren't going to get anyway. But we moved the promise up front. And we make it a promise instead of a, yeah, I filled out the forms. And you'll see at the end that you're eligible. And that shift that guarantee that the taking on of that risk. By the university instead of by the student, makes a huge difference. So, maybe that's not radical, maybe it's gradualism. But it certainly seems to have made a big difference in how people make decisions. In how some young people make decisions in the state of Michigan. >> Got it. However, working as a union organizer is very different. Than working within a large public research university. >> I was a union organizer at a large public research university, just to be clear. So, I organized workers at the University of Minnesota. And I organized workers at Harvard University. But, the answer is, no, I don't think there's a very special role. For universities as agents of social change. I think they're one of many institutions in our country. And they've got their particular strengths in their particular weaknesses and nearsightedness is. And, they're one of the places where you can get good things done. So, a university is a collection of people and resources. And, treat people well, be nice, treat the workers well, treat them as golden rule. It's getting noisy here again. We have children and dogs running about. So, that's going to be part of the background noise here. >> [LAUGH] >> So, I think no matter what kind of organization you're in. If you're in a foundation, if you're working for the government, if you're working for a private firm. You aim to create a culture and norms that are decent. That are caring, that are honest. And honestly, as you, have a pretty simple approach. And I don't really see that the public university is different in this scheme. >> That's great, we're going to come to a close. And I just wanted to ask at this point. Are there any additional comments or suggestions that you would have from your own work. Or about what we're trying to accomplish. >> To younger people who want to make change, as I said. Find good people, form goals. If there is research that informs what you hope to affect, learn about it. And use it to inform what you're doing. But, the main thing is to be a good person and work with good people.